Is chivalry dead?

sheeplady · Aug 26, 2013

MikeBravo said:
When I was young my uncle was killed in a workplace accident. He was hardly spoken of after that, I suppose to spare my aunt's feelings. It was really sad as my cousins (aged 12, 10 and 18 months old at the time) needed to hear about him and know how loved he was by all the extended family.

My advise? Don't change how you relate to her or what you call her. Don't worry about talking about her husband, though maybe let her start the conversation at first. Suicide has a stigma about it which can be devastating for the family on top of losing a loved one.

I want to second this. Even though it hurts to think of a lost loved one, it hurts so so much more to think that people have forgotten about the person you loved. When people act like that person didn't exist to spare people's feelings (with good intentions), it really really hurts the ones left behind. It makes them feel very alone in their grief and can make them feel like no one was affected by the loss except for them. Try to share really good memories of your former neighbor with his widow.

Stray Cat · Sep 4, 2013

Last week the phone rang at the office. I answered.
"Hello"
"Hey, it's me. What are you doing?"
I held the phone and stared at the wall wondering if I should try and answer that ar just hang up.
I had no idea who is "me".
And - last time I've checked, it was inpolite to ask someone what is he/she doing; or even worce - where is he/she going. [huh]

Feraud · Sep 4, 2013

sheeplady said:
I want to second this. Even though it hurts to think of a lost loved one, it hurts so so much more to think that people have forgotten about the person you loved. When people act like that person didn't exist to spare people's feelings (with good intentions), it really really hurts the ones left behind. It makes them feel very alone in their grief and can make them feel like no one was affected by the loss except for them. Try to share really good memories of your former neighbor with his widow.

Along those lines there is a lot of bad parenting taught with the idea of sparing children from visiting sick or dying relatives in the hospital.
I've experienced this in my family and it bugs the hell out of me. When my 93 year old grandmother recently ended up in a hospital intensive care unit, maybe half her 8 adult grandchildren visited. From her 8 great-grandchildren, only my son visited every day. This woman gave all her time to her family and this is what she gets in her time of need.

I don't know or care about high brow medieval concepts of chivalry, but common decency looks near dead to me.

LizzieMaine · Sep 4, 2013

Absolutely. When I hear someone say "Oh, I know so-and-so is in the hospital, and I should visit her, but -- hospitals are so *depressing,*" I want to belt them.

Oh really? How terrible, how piteous your life is. But imagine how depressed *she* is!

Feraud · Sep 4, 2013

Those excuses about not liking hospitals (as opposed to those who love being patients..), who lives too far away, and what is too young to visit a hospital make my blood boil.
That's family for ya..

nick123 · Sep 4, 2013

Semi-drifting off topic here, but I'll add my two cents.
I really enjoy visiting retirement homes (same idea, a lot of neglection).
We all seem to revere the past here, especially vintage clothing items of quality, sacrifice (military and everyday hard work), etc.
These people lived it. It's a gift we have such people still around and I enjoy it a lot.

vitanola · Sep 4, 2013

Stray Cat said:
"Hey, it's me." [huh]

Might it perhaps have been Pinky Lee?

John in Covina · Sep 4, 2013

LizzieMaine said:
Absolutely. When I hear someone say "Oh, I know so-and-so is in the hospital, and I should visit her, but -- hospitals are so *depressing,*" I want to belt them. Oh really? How terrible, how piteous your life is. But imagine how depressed *she* is!

I have cousin raised as an only child that has refused to see anyone in the hospital ever. It is his deep seated fear of mortality that he hides from.

LizzieMaine · Sep 4, 2013

John in Covina said:
I have cousin raised as an only child that has refused to see anyone in the hospital ever. It is his deep seated fear of mortality that he hides from.

He can run -- but in the end, he can't hide.

Stray Cat · Sep 4, 2013

vitanola said:
Might it perhaps have been Pinky Lee?

Could be anyone. We are all "me".

Zombie_61 · Sep 4, 2013

LizzieMaine said:
He can run -- but in the end, he can't hide.

In my experience people who come to terms with this fact tend to appreciate their lives, their time spent here, and the people in their lives far more than those who live in fear of death.

Getting back to the main topic for a moment, I do my best to abide by the modern definition of chivalry (which has become somewhat synonymous with common courtesy) because I enjoy extending those courtesies to others. On occasion it perturbs my wife--taking the time to open her car door for her if we're in a hurry, for example--but I do it anyway because it makes me happy and, despite her protestations, it makes her happy that I still want to treat her like a lady after 32 years of marriage.

Mind you, this is nothing new for me, even though I have no recollection of ever having been taught to do these things. Several years ago I found myself in the unique position of going to see a movie with my wife and a woman I dated in high school. My wife and I picked up my former girlfriend on the way to the theater, and as the three of us returned to the car I opened the doors for them. Before entering the car, my former girlfriend turned to my wife and commented, "Oh, he still does that, huh?" lol

That said, I'm fully aware that my behavior is the exception rather than the rule these days, and it makes me a little sad that so many people are so self-important and self-involved that they can't take a moment or two out of their "busy" day to be nice to someone regardless of whether they're a loved one or a complete stranger.

vitanola · Sep 4, 2013

Stray Cat said:
Could be anyone. We are all "me".

"Yoo-Hoo, It's Me!":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DqmiU7qsyI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Stray Cat · Sep 5, 2013

Zombie_61 said:
That said, I'm fully aware that my behavior is the exception rather than the rule these days, and it makes me a little sad that so many people are so self-important and self-involved that they can't take a moment or two out of their "busy" day to be nice to someone regardless of whether they're a loved one or a complete stranger.

Well said!
“Courtesy is a silver lining around the dark clouds of civilization; it is the best part of refinement and in many ways, an art of heroic beauty in the vast gallery of man's cruelty and baseness.”
Bryant H. McGill - Author, Poet, Broadcaster

GHT · Sep 25, 2013

In an age when chivalry is well, not exactly dead, just not observed as it once was, when is both social kissing deemed correct and the term 'darling' when addressed to friend's wives, partners and others of a close acquaintance?

For my own take, I view social kissing as an art, but it has to be done with approval. When I kiss a female for the first time, I offer my hands, palms up. If she puts her hands into mine, palms down, I draw her towards me. Any reluctance and I simply squeeze her palms and pay her a passing compliment. If on the other hand, she offers me her cheek, I will press my lips firmly but gently against her face for no more than a second or two. Perhaps later, we might kiss each other on both cheeks. Air kissing I loathe, but I am aware of smudging a ladies' make up, so if a kiss is proffered, but her body language says "Don't take liberties," I just brush cheeks, but use the up turn/ down turn palms, to squeeze her fingers gently, so as to convey a mutual feeling of accord.

Darling I reserve for the females in my close circle of true friends. I call my wife darling, but I also have a number of cherished names for her that I use, exclusively. Actually we both use darling towards our closest friends, simply because those friends are special to us.
Perhaps as dancers, as in ballroom and latin dancers, we are used to the tactile nature of our pastime, so darling is of second nature.
Do any of you have a take on social kissing, or use endearments to those whom you are fond?

LizzieMaine · Sep 25, 2013

GHT said:
Do any of you have a take on social kissing, or use endearments to those whom you are fond?

I come from a culture where public physical contact is something that's just not done -- the only exception being a parent holding onto a kid. We generally don't hug on greeting someone, we never kiss anyone outside our immediate family for any reason, and we only shake hands when the other person offers their hand first. Physical contact is considered a very private, very personal thing, and you have to know someone extremely well, and be on very close terms with them to consider hugging them -- and then only on occasions of great emotion, and not in front of anyone else if you can help it. It makes me very uncomfortable when people from away come up here and try to hug me on being introduced -- it might be the way they do it where they come from, but it ain't the way we do it here.

It's not uncommon, though, for friends and acquaintances to use nicknames. Waitresses and store clerks will often call anyone "dee-ah," which is our local pronunciation for "dear," and I find myself using this with kids on occasion. I have nicknames for my closest friends, usually nonsensical variations on their given name, or words which make no sense at all. One of my colleagues at work I often call "Lester," "Lucifer," "Rufus," "Roscoe," "Humphrey," "Melvin," or "Oscar," for no good reason other than the fact that his actual name is "Dave." But I have to know you pretty well, for a long time, before I'll call you "Melvin."

HudsonHawk · Sep 25, 2013

LizzieMaine said:
we never kiss anyone outside our immediate family for any reason

So no sparkin' on the front porch? Well that's no fun.

vitanola · Sep 25, 2013

Stray Cat said:
Could be anyone. We are all "me".

We may all be "me", but there was only one Pinky Lee:

[video=youtube_share;GWbweOyYLEE]http://youtu.be/GWbweOyYLEE[/video]

That is perhaps a good thing.

Zombie_61 · Sep 25, 2013

GHT said:
...Do any of you have a take on social kissing, or use endearments to those whom you are fond?

My wife and I have a select "inner circle" of long-time friends with whom we have no qualms about polite physical contact whether in a public or a private setting. These people know we consider them family (I was adopted, so I have a somewhat unique perspective on the definition of "family" which my wife understands), and understand that greeting them with a hug and a kiss is one of our little ways of expressing our appreciation for having them in our lives. Then there are the friends who are outside of this "circle", most of whom we greet without physical contact (except for handshakes between the men).

As for terms of endearment, similar rules apply. With those within the "inner circle" my wife and I can be a little more "familiar" and even jokingly flirtatious, and everyone understands it's nothing more than a little harmless fun and another way in which my wife and I express our sincere appreciation. And, as in LizzieMaine's example above, we'll occasionally use nicknames that are usually a play on their names; "Sue" becomes "Suzy-Q", for example. Otherwise, I reserve any and all terms of endearment for my wife.

Above all, regardless of the setting I treat ladies as ladies and gentlemen as gentlemen. I would never presume it's acceptable to offer anything more than a polite verbal greeting to a woman when first meeting her (or even having known her for a while), but I will offer a handshake to almost any man.

Son_of_Atropos · Sep 26, 2013

I've thought about this for sometime. To me, its dead. A nice, honest, clean living fellow is a lamb to the slaughter now a days. To analogize, it is like the knight in Henry VI part 1, who maintains the code of chivalry, yet is ultimately killed for maintaining that bygone value system. If no one else follows those values or honors them, then why follow it? There is none.

HudsonHawk · Sep 26, 2013

LizzieMaine said:
It's not uncommon, though, for friends and acquaintances to use nicknames. Waitresses and store clerks will often call anyone "dee-ah," which is our local pronunciation for "dear," and I find myself using this with kids on occasion. I have nicknames for my closest friends, usually nonsensical variations on their given name, or words which make no sense at all. One of my colleagues at work I often call "Lester," "Lucifer," "Rufus," "Roscoe," "Humphrey," "Melvin," or "Oscar," for no good reason other than the fact that his actual name is "Dave." But I have to know you pretty well, for a long time, before I'll call you "Melvin."

I'm sure somewhere there's a thread on how we chose our monikers on this board, but...back in my (unconfirmed) bachelor days, my friend Reno (yes, that's his real name) was famous for giving all us fellas nicknames. Since it was around the time that the amazingly bad Bruce Willis movie was out, and my last name is Hudson, I became "HudsonHawk". It could have been worse...our friend Dave became "Sweetcheeks MacGillicuddy". At any rate, by fortune or by curse, my nickname is the only one that stuck, and to this day, many of those guys still call me "HudsonHawk" or just "Hawk".

Is chivalry dead?

sheeplady

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Stray Cat

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Feraud

LizzieMaine

Feraud

nick123

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vitanola

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John in Covina

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Stray Cat

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Zombie_61

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GHT

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