Art Fawcett VS Hall of Fame

Ok here are some 'better' photos.

This colour is really hard to photograph accurately. But it is very dark, looking black indoors but coming to life outside.

With thanks to Art for his skill and Rabbit for the inspiration.





I think the following image captures the colour best, on my monitor at least:



During shipping the creases had been shaken out so hopefully I've got the bash back to something approximating Art's design. I'm very happy with it and unlike the dress weight felt, this black cherry is a colour I can wear without feeling self conscious.

Thank you Art.

Ted, your photos are great. I think they capture the new black cherry felt very well. The diamond crease looks just right to me. I feel the same way about the old and the new black cherry dyes. As a matter of fact, the new version strikes me as being a very, for lack of a better word, manly color.

Rabbit said:

Ted, your photos are great. I think they capture the new black cherry felt very well. The diamond crease looks just right to me. I feel the same way about the old and the new black cherry dyes. As a matter of fact, the new version strikes me as being a very, for lack of a better word, manly color.

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Yes I know exactly what you mean.

Cheers

Mulceber said:

A month or so ago I had Art rebuild the first hat he ever made for me. Just two weeks ago I received this rebuilt blue smoke beauty in the mail from Art and I've only now gotten a chance to post pictures. As usual, Art wowed me.

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Very cool Mulceber! Whats the specs on that hat? The proportions remind me of Edward G Robinson's hat from "Little Caesar".

Looks like Art has been cranking out some beauties lately! (unsurprisingly, of course) Mulceber, I really like that bound brim Jazzman.

mustangman3000 said:

Very cool Mulceber! Whats the specs on that hat? The proportions remind me of Edward G Robinson's hat from "Little Caesar".

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The Jazzman had a 6" open crown. With the crown creased center-dent the way it is (i.e. not too deeply creased), the creased height is a bit higher than what the 5.5" standard crown would get you.
6" and 5 3/4" open crowns can also be used to achieve a very deep diamond crease, in which case you get about the same creased height as the standard 5.5" open crown with a "normal" center-dent or diamond.
The brim width should be a function of your height and buillt; the Jazzman had a 2.5" brim if I remember correctly. Could have been 2 3/8", not sure.
It's been said that Bogart, a smaller-framed man, often wore 2 3/8" brims. Robinson and Cagney, likewise of smaller built, often wore brims as short as 2 1/4" in their early 1930s films, sometimes even stingier brims. Their hats often had crowns higher than 5.5", as you already observed.
I'm of medium height myself (5'8" on 136lbs) and have found 5.5"+ straight-ish crowns with 2 3/8" brims to be right in the middle of my comfort zone.

Happy New Year, everyone.

Good to "see" you, Nik. Happy New Year to YOU!

Here's where I get confused. I'm pretty small and have round face too, at least I think so. But a 6" crown and 2 1/2"brim look very big on me. I'm starting to wonder if 2 1/4" is a better brim width for me in general, with a 5"crown. Robinson's hat in that photo doesn't appear so tall or wide, and mulceber's new vs has almost identical effect. Don't know how tall he is. /

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Wow, Mustangman, I hadn't even thought of the Little Caesar hat. I've seen the film before, but never drew the connection. I'm glad this rebuilt hat is in such distinguished company. As for the proportions, I believe Rabbit is right, except that the brim is 2 3/8".

Rabbit, I think you and I are mostly in the same boat, style-wise. The major difference is I'm about 6'1" and 180 lbs, so I scaled up the proportions of the hat - mine tend to be between 5 3/4" tall with 2 3/8"-2.5" brims.

Thanks Bowlerman! Hmm...I think 6" is hard to pull off if you aren't tall and lanky. One thing I've noticed though is that it's less about the absolute measurements of the hat and more about the proportions. I have a hat with a 5" crown and 2 1/8"-2 1/4" brim that works well with me just because the proportions work well together.

Hello there, hatsRme!

Mulceber, I agree that 6" is hard to pull off for medium height. That is, unless you use it for a deep crease. Depending on the block shape, one could do a deep center dent with resulting reverse taper, apart from the obvoius choice of deep diamond crease.
One thing I noticed with higher crowns (above 5.5") on both vintage hats and the one VS with 5 3/4" crown that I have is that once you do such a deep crease, it can become a little difficult to also have deep side dents/ front pinches. That's because the deep crease at the crown roof already puts a lot of tension on the crown; the pinch or side dents then can have a tendency to pop back. However, it really depends on the individual hat, its blocking and felt. It's just a tendency I've noticed.

bowlerman said:

Here's where I get confused. I'm pretty small and have round face too, at least I think so. But a 6" crown and 2 1/2"brim look very big on me. I'm starting to wonder if 2 1/4" is a better brim width for me in general, with a 5"crown. Robinson's hat in that photo doesn't appear so tall or wide, and mulceber's new vs has almost identical effect. Don't know how tall he is. /

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Jeff, I think that 2 3/8" is a good start for a short to medium height. 2 1/2" does look a little wide there. I guess 2 1/4" would also work for short to medium height slim folks.
My VS Silverbelly with 22L black ribbon has a 2 5/16" brim, that's just 1/16" shorter than my standard 2 3/8" VS brims. I notice the difference when I handle the hat, and it's visible on photos, too. My VS Sand is the only one with 2 1/2" brim, and it does look a lot wider than the other ones.

What I'm trying to convey is that 1/8 inch from 2 3/8" either way is a surprisingly big jump.

What we seem to view as a moderate brim width (neither stingy nor country-esque widebrim look) is the range of 2 1/4" to 2 5/8".
2 1/4" and 2 3/8" for short to medium height, 2 1/2" for tall and slim, 2 5/8" for tall and husky, and the end result should look comparable - give or take some, depending on personal taste. That's at least what I associate with a balanced silhouette.

You mentioned a 5" crown - if you mean a 5" open crown (OC), I couldn't advise it. 5.5" is practically the standard for a pre-WWII U.S. market hat with straight-ish block. It works perfectly well for a shorter height.
5" OC were around as well, but it's the absolute lower limit, allowing only shallow creases and not much free space above the noggin. I've owned a Mallory Nokabout with 5" OC, it's posted early in the comparison thread with another model of similar dimensions.

The actual shape of the block makes perhaps even more of a difference than the block height alone, which is measured at the highest point.

I think I get it. Five years of hat wearing and I still haven't figured out how to account for height or build! I'm going to have to ask art for a band block too, one of these days.

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Jeff, a bandblock will be a smart investment. I have lots of them and use them all the time.

As for hat dimensions, perhaps this will be of more general interest. Sorry for posting the same old pics..



Details of the hats, starting from the left:

5 ½” x 2 3/8” (52-ish block) VS Silverbelly w 19L black with a diamond crease that edges out just far enough to make the crown, which is already blocked fairly straight, even straighter. The dents are a deep front pinch.

5 ½” x 2 3/8” (52-ish block) VS Blue Smoke w 22L charcoal with a diamond crease that has the outer diamond corners sitting a bit further back and not quite so deep. The dents are moved a bit to the side.

5 ½” x 2 3/8” (more rounded block) VS Blue Smoke w 17L black with a deep diamond crease and tight front pinch which gets the crown shape back to a straighter silhouette.

5 ¾” x 2 3/8” (more rounded block) VS Dove w 19L black with a deep diamond crease.

The images should show that the VS Blue Smoke w 17L black looks considerably lower-crowned than the other hats – it’s the same 5.5” crown height, but on a more rounded block and creased deeper. With the exception of this one hat, the effective (creased) crown heights are roughly the same, including the 5 ¾” hat. However, when you look at the crown sides you can see that the crown silhouettes still differ slightly from each other due to the different creases. For instance, the hat on the far left looks more square-ish in front view than the others (not a random artefact due to camera angle, the hat really looks like this).

Rabbit said:

The actual shape of the block makes perhaps even more of a difference than the block height alone, which is measured at the highest point.

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I absolutely agree! There's also important differences between a low crown and a high crown, creased low. If you crease a high crown considerably lower with a deep crease, you tend to "loose" the shoulders of the block - and the silhouette will not resemble a hat blocked on a lower block.

Bowlerman said:

Five years of hat wearing and I still haven't figured out how to account for height or build!

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Yeah, but it isn't easy at all. It's not all about actual looks, but also what your posture, behaviour and other attire does to your overall expression, as it's percieved by others. I recall a historic play in the repertoire of our national stage. When I was a kid, the role of the legendary Danish King Christian IV used to be played by one of our old famous actors. The actor was actually a quite small man, but the costume, setting, lighting and the way he carried himself made him look like the giant monarch from the myths of Christian IV.

If you think carefully, I'm sure you can find examples like this from your own circles. Small people with an enormous personality, that seems to make them look a lot bigger - and the other way around. Visual appearance is not all about actual body-size. The body-size can be a useable rule-of-thumb, though

PS: A funny thing is, that Christian IV actually was a very small man himself - just made a lot bigger by descriptions and paintings. According to myth and pictures, he was a giant!

My dad worked as a conservator at the museum, where the torso-amour from this picture of Christian IV is on display:



Many years ago the amour was taken down to be restored, and my dad would try it on. It turned out to be way too small for him, though. My dad was a skinny little man - at the very most 5' 9" tall! Sometimes, life is a funny place to reside

Crown Height and Block...

I love the 30's high crown square/boxy style hat. I'm 5'8" 175lbs and my widest brim is 2 3/8, which as mentioned is a surprising jump from my 2 1/4 brims. This thread raises some interesting points about the relationship of the "block" used together with the crown height and the final look and silhouette. I am interested in a a new VS with a 6" open and DEEP bash. Would any of you gentlemen weigh in to explain more about the block/crown relationship...
Thank you

The hat I posted one page back has a 6" crown and a deep bash. Personally I love the film noir look. Watching films like Maltese Falcon, Out of the Past, Double Indemnity etc, I see a lot of hand creased deep diamond bashes. That is the look I like and for it you need a high crown and mid width brim. Obviously depending on your size & build to get the proportions right. What works for one may be wrong proportionally on another...

Ole, those are good points on "effective" body height due to posture and demeanor.

Emil, I'm not sure what you want to know exactly, but as Ole has already pointed out, deeper creases on higher crowns do result in more square silhouettes, but they also tend to loose the shoulder or, in my own meager words, the sides of the crown are more under tension. Take a close look at Ted's photos, they show this very well.
The leftmost hat in my collage is only a 5.5" open crown, but blocked on a very straight block with fairly flat roof. As described above, it's as square as you can get, only without "loosing the shoulders".

Your best bet is to ask Art, I think.

Rabbit said:

Ole, those are good points on "effective" body height due to posture and demeanor. It's also in the way the body moves, and training or lack thereof. All body movements have (or at least can have) their origin in the center of the body, i.e. the stomach muscles and the lower back. If this part of the body is straight, the rest can follow and appear more erect, thus taller.

Back to hats, though.

Emil, I'm not sure what you want to know exactly, but as Ole has already pointed out, deeper creases on higher crowns do result in more square silhouettes, but they also tend to loose the shoulder or, in my own meager words, the sides of the crown are more under tension. Take a close look at Ted's photos, they show this very well.
The leftmost hat in my collage is only a 5.5" open crown, but blocked on a very straight block with fairly flat roof. As described above, it's as square as you can get, only without "loosing the shoulders".

Your best bet is to ask Art, I think.

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Nik ( et al)... RE: my question about the block/crown Height
I am assuming that it is indeed the straight sided block which produces the square boxy shape... and I do get what you mean about the shoulder being reduced (not so square shaped, right). There must be then multiple "style" straight sided blocks that are used with a 6" crown for the look. Which type of those blocks would be most appropriate to that high crown/deep bash/square silhouette...

emigran said:

There must be then multiple "style" straight sided blocks that are used with a 6" crown for the look. Which type of those blocks would be most appropriate to that high crown/deep bash/square silhouette...

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The most used back in the day was the #52 (or #952). The same silhouette was also called "Columbia", which some suppliers called their blocks of this style. Blocks #108, #120, #130 and #161 also have quite straight sides (with more or less rounded top), but I haven't seen any of them 6" tall.

The best to do is to ask Art, which blocks he has, and which one he would suggest

I agree, Ole. Best to ask Art.

In the meantime, Emil - maybe you misunderstand the shoulder thing - or maybe I misunderstood you.. Hopefully I'm not adding confusion now.

The shoulder is just the part of the block where the top and the sides meet. Right, Ole? You'll know better than I do.
You can have a "square look" (a straight-sided silhouette, that's what you mean, isn't it?) on a #52-type block with a smoothly curved shoulder or on a higher block which has to be a bit more rounded (counter-intuitively, perhaps), and the latter option would mean that the top/sides transition is more angular once creased. That's what you get with a deep crease.
I haven't seen that many higher block shapes, but from what I've seen it's customary to have a little more rounded-shoulder which still gets a square creased crown out of it, because the crease is deeper. I think there are #52-type higher blocks around, too, though, but I wouldn't go for one.

Btw, even #52 blocks are not entirely square. They have to account for the crease, after all, and are shaped so that the creased hat is fairly square.

You're right, Nik. The shoulders is the curved line/area connecting the sides to the top. And you're also right, that #52 has very slight taper - and so do the others I mentioned. Nevertheless #52 is the most straight/square/full block, I know of.