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OP post.......
'3. Do we, as jacket consumers, care whether our leather is “full” grain or “top” grain?'
I think that I am on topic..even though you may disagree.
HD
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Full Grain v. Top Grain
- Thread starter Superfluous
- Start date
OP post.......
'3. Do we, as jacket consumers, care whether our leather is “full” grain or “top” grain?'
I think that I am on topic..even though you may disagree.
HD
andyfalzon
Vendor
- Messages
- 422
- Location
- europe
Why is it a poor explanation? First of all it was example, not explanation.
It was mentioned earlier that both full grain and top grain have equal qualities (full grain is actually bit more durable) and they are both adequate leathers to make jackets with. Their difference is that the full grain is more natural (because it's not processed in any way) and thereby considered more natural and beautiful and hence has a higher value.
What's so difficult to understand?
in the above photo, Shinki on the left Victory on the right. Which one do you think looks more natural?
Remind you, when Shinki piece started, i.e. before it was processed, looked like the one on the right.
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andyfalzon
Vendor
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- europe
Tricky question. I can only answer in private.
I don't think anyone is rubbishing anyones product here ...... simply explaining why they use the raw material they do.
Full Grain ...... exceptional leather, great for jackets and a wide variety of products
Top Grain .... also exceptional Leather with a slightly different characteristic but still pretty damn good leather
Veg Tanned ..... great leather ( longer to tan, naturally produced, slower to produce and slightly more expensive )
Chrome Tanned .... great leather ( faster tanning process, more chemical based )
........... you pays yer money and you takes yer choice
The fact that Andy and BK utilise what they believe to be the best leather for their product can only be testament to their commitment to producing a fabulous product. Each manufacturer selects their own unique raw material geared to produce their own particular product ... e.g. Aero focus on use of Horween CXL, JC uses Shinki and others etc. etc. etc.
We as consumers have the ultimate choice and a great selection of amazing jacket manufacturers to choose from with a wide selection of styles and attributes ( from stitch perfect replicas .... to stylised reproductions) at a variety of price points; various levels of customisation; various spply point solutions and varying levels of supply.
All in Leather jacket world is currently GREAT ... and as a consumer all I can say is long may it continue.
( but then I'll buy from anyone so long as the product is good and the price is right .... I'm a simple consumer and experience has taught me that brand loyalty only limits choice and narrows the market and benefits the supplier more than the market or the consumer ... which the supplier seldom offers any value for
)
Just MHO
Full Grain ...... exceptional leather, great for jackets and a wide variety of products
Top Grain .... also exceptional Leather with a slightly different characteristic but still pretty damn good leather
Veg Tanned ..... great leather ( longer to tan, naturally produced, slower to produce and slightly more expensive )
Chrome Tanned .... great leather ( faster tanning process, more chemical based )
........... you pays yer money and you takes yer choice
The fact that Andy and BK utilise what they believe to be the best leather for their product can only be testament to their commitment to producing a fabulous product. Each manufacturer selects their own unique raw material geared to produce their own particular product ... e.g. Aero focus on use of Horween CXL, JC uses Shinki and others etc. etc. etc.
We as consumers have the ultimate choice and a great selection of amazing jacket manufacturers to choose from with a wide selection of styles and attributes ( from stitch perfect replicas .... to stylised reproductions) at a variety of price points; various levels of customisation; various spply point solutions and varying levels of supply.
All in Leather jacket world is currently GREAT ... and as a consumer all I can say is long may it continue.
( but then I'll buy from anyone so long as the product is good and the price is right .... I'm a simple consumer and experience has taught me that brand loyalty only limits choice and narrows the market and benefits the supplier more than the market or the consumer ... which the supplier seldom offers any value for
)Just MHO
Dickie Teenie
A-List Customer
- Messages
- 367
- Location
- Iowa now Athens Gr.
I love the look of unmolested leather, I would love to have a JC jacket as well. Maybe in time. Andy, how's my jacket coming? no need to answer here.
It would seem to me that lighter and mid-tone colored hides would benefit more from the "full grain" approach. Darker leathers wouldn't show variation as much anyway- so it wouldn't matter. Unless there is a quality difference for jacket making, it boils down to wallpaper vs. paint. Both cover and decorate a room, but they each have their own "look".
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I am not asking you that question or have any desire for your private judgment. However..I did answer it with my personal opinion from my perspective in an early post.
HD
Ishmael
Practically Family
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- 546
- Location
- Tokyo, Japan
Mo natural. Mo beautiful. I think I'm getting it......
Grayland
Call Me a Cab
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- 2,061
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- Upstate NY
The jacket to the left of the guy is just beautiful.
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- East Central Indiana
BTW Andy..using a poor example of Shinki leather (and color) compared to your prime example of Victory leather doesn't do much for me...or your argument. All one has to do to really compare is look at the beautiful Shinki hides that others have posted in this thread.
HD
HD
Dickie Teenie
A-List Customer
- Messages
- 367
- Location
- Iowa now Athens Gr.
Yes the lefty is sweet. I prefer my vintage hair on horsehide long coat over Himel's and wouldn't trade though the price difference is substantial.
Reminds me of what I said in the other thread...
Will I really be less satisfied (today, tomorrow, in 30 years) with that $800 dollar bottle of 100-point rated bordeaux than I would have been with that $825 dollar bottle of 100-point rated bordeaux?
Maybe a bad example because I'm not in the habit of dropping 8 bills on a bottle of wine, but I trust you get my point.
Will I really be less satisfied (today, tomorrow, in 30 years) with that $800 dollar bottle of 100-point rated bordeaux than I would have been with that $825 dollar bottle of 100-point rated bordeaux?
Maybe a bad example because I'm not in the habit of dropping 8 bills on a bottle of wine, but I trust you get my point.
andyfalzon
Vendor
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- europe
Your constant objections and comments are well noted and respected. The "poor" example of Shinki was what Shinki thought appropriate to send us as sample in order that we buy from them. So I guess if its good enough for them for this task, it should be good for you too. So I guess calling it poor is poor choice of words. The debate here is not which tannery makes the best leather but rather if full grain is better looking than top grain. Since it retains all of its grain intact I 'd say full grain looks better. All the tanneries I know would agree with this reality.
No doubt that there are some beautiful Shinki leathers out there, but if one wants to be objective, he should put them side by side with full grain and observe the differences. If you care to do that and can pay all costs involved, we can send you a couple of jackets to see for yourself.
Foster
One of the Regulars
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- 261
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- N.C., U.S.A.
I care about quality, but I also live with the realities of financial constraints. Naturally, I want the best available leather but there is a price point at which the premium product is not worth the additional expense.
When it comes to jackets, the hide is only one factor of consideration. It is the most visible, but for me the hide alone is not the deciding factor. I also consider the business making the jacket, the hardware, and the lining (and of course the price!). In my case, I scrutinize the lining more than most as my background is in textiles. I know fabrics better than I know hides. I am learning much about leather hides and tanning, thanks to this forum and other online sources that make such research possible at my leisure.
I think much falls back on the "Classic Three" in business: 1. Quality of Product, 2. Speed of Delivery, and 3. Low / Reasonable Cost. The general rule is, as a consumer you can obtain two of the Three, but not all three every time. Time and again I see these factors come into play with leather jackets (or their components). Compromises are made in real time to offer the customer the best possible option at a given point in time. Keeping cost down and deliveries fast often means the quality of the product may not be the ultimate best. Offering the best quality often drives up the price, or slows delivery (or both).
The customer is what essentially establishes the demand. If customers of a jacket maker insist on premium hides, the cost goes up. If customers insist on prices going down, there are going to be adjustments made to meet that demand. It is basic economics. Few of us can afford to live in a world of idealism, although businesses do often try to market things as being the pinnacle option above all competition.
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Looks like nice grain on this Shinki example to me...
I'm gonna go against the grain here ^_^
and say that as far as I can tell I think he is doing precisely that
Looks like nice grain on this Shinki example to me...
How can you possibly say that? Clearly an uninspired design assembled from sub par materials. I'm embarrassed for you. Uneven coloring points to something akin to "pleather." The best thing one could do with that monstrosity is to be rid of it, and the faster, the better. Ummm, what size did you say it was again?.....
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I will never cease to be stunned by some of the bizarre interpretations of our actions. This is wholesale rubbish. We've closed threads, and explained why we were doing so, because posters were well beyond the rules of civility that we demand from our members. We truly strive for editorial integrity. In doing so, we are going to make everybody mad at some point.
Thank you John. You have our undiminished respect and admiration, no matter your "official" status. Having watched your interest in leather jackets from the beginning, and having seen your efforts develop into the very top-tier world-wide, we could not be happier for you, always, and wish you the very best in continued success, which has been hard-earned and is richly deserved.
Nope, the chrome v veg thread was closed without explanation.
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?76645-Veg-v-Chrome-Tanning/page13
Pages 14 and 15 where completely deleted including an innocuous post from me about traditional tanning methods !
Collateral damage I suppose.
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