Vintage Police Uniforms

Edward · Apr 9, 2014

HudsonHawk said:
Mounted police are use for downtown patrol on busy streets, as well as for large outdoor gatherings, though probably not for "riot control", but their primary use is for search and rescue types of activities. Horses seem to be the right tool for that job. In fact, there's a private search and rescue operation called Texas Equusearch, which is quite renown for their capabilities on horseback.

I've never been to Texas, but I can well imagine there's a lot of the terrain there that a horse can pass much more easily than a car... nature can still best us in many respects.

Crazy question, but aside from transport, do the horse have any other advantage - e.g. while they'd be no replacement for a dog, can they pick up a scent?

Yeah, the Rangers aren't really a "uniform", per se. And believe it or not, it's not always stifling hot in Texas. Right now, as a matter of fact, is a beautiful time of year. And we have our cold as well. But in general, it's a warm weather climate, so dress standards tend to reflect that.

Eh, well, it might not be stifling hot to you, but for me anything above 21C is serious heat...

gman41 said:
The Sam Browne belt strap is used to bear the weight of the pistol, to keep it up from sagging. We use a breakaway system so that if someone grabs the strap it will simply just disconnect and not be used to drag the wearer. Same with the clip on tie.

Interesting, I've not seen one of those yet. If I remember rightly, the police in Northern Ireland when I still lived there didn't use a Sam Browne, and, of course, here in London they're not armed, so it's a development I've missed. Definitely a logical development, though.

To the point above about Christians not being required to wear a cross I say this. Not every Jew has a beard or a yarmulke,

True, but for a Hassidic Jew, or for some more mainstream but still traditional sects, it's an obligation.

not every Asian dress's like a Buddhist monk.

Mn.... but "Asian" isn't a religion, and Buddhists in general don't have the dress rules that the job of being a monk carry....

In the end it is a personal preference on how far you choose to take your religion. These are the rules, do you want the job or not. And perhaps I would be offended being confronted by a female officer in a burka with all or part of her face covered. So maybe we just need to remove all religion from government and it's workers and let them be free to practice at home.

Could be done, though the problem then would be the inevitable exclusion of all but those of us whose religious belief places no dresscode requirements on us, which would be rather to the detriment of an effective police force. It's a bit of a minefield, I'm sure, but I'm always glad when they take reasonable steps to accomodate. [huh]

Police are just a lightning rod no matter what continent you type from. Most hate them, some love them and respect them.

Is that how it seems on the inside? I've never seen widespread hatred of the police here in England (the riot squad might be another matter). There was a lot of it about back in Northern Ireland, from both tribes, but that's symptomatic of a much deeper cultural malaise.

Shangas said:
The Shanghai Municipal Police ("SMP") operated within the confines of the Shanghai International Settlement, from the 1850s until the 1940s, when the Settlement was disbanded during WWII. They were originally modelled after the British Metropolitan Police ("Scotland Yard").

The SMP had one of the hardest jobs in policing back in the old days. From its earliest days, the Settlement was a hotbed of vice, crime and violence. Drug-smuggling, prostitution, racial violence, gang-violence, shootings, stabbings, underworld wars kidnappings and other hardcore crimes were VERY common in Shanghai.

Shanghai was an open port at the time. One of five 'Treaty Ports'. As people living in Shanghai were granted immunity from prosecution by Chinese officials, the only 'law' that existed within the Settlement was the SMP, or the law that you carried in your pocket. As you can imagine, this made crime EXTREMELY common. I'm not surprised at all that the police carried bulletproof/stabproof vests with them as part of their uniform.

It's a fascinating period of China's history, albeit one I can't imagine was especially pleasant to live through, except perhaps for the very rich.

HudsonHawk · Apr 9, 2014

Edward said:
I've never been to Texas, but I can well imagine there's a lot of the terrain there that a horse can pass much more easily than a car... nature can still best us in many respects.

Crazy question, but aside from transport, do the horse have any other advantage - e.g. while they'd be no replacement for a dog, can they pick up a scent?

I don't know about picking up a scent, but horses are naturally curious creatures and tend to notice things out of the ordinary. They respond to things they find curious. There's a saying "look where the horse looks". Of course they can simply cover difficult terrain faster than a man on foot, plus they can carry equipment and give a higher vantage point for the searcher, all of which make them valuable in that effort.

Edward · Apr 10, 2014

HudsonHawk said:
I don't know about picking up a scent, but horses are naturally curious creatures and tend to notice things out of the ordinary. They respond to things they find curious. There's a saying "look where the horse looks". Of course they can simply cover difficult terrain faster than a man on foot, plus they can carry equipment and give a higher vantage point for the searcher, all of which make them valuable in that effort.

Mn, I thought there might be something like that. I live with two cats - they (and all the other cats I've known over the years) always seem to know when it's going to rain, or get cold, or when someone's coming to the door long before I do. It's an animal trait I suppose we've lost... makes sense a horse would have something of that, even if it's not the primary purpose of using a horse. Fascinating creatures.

DeaconKC · Apr 10, 2014

Someone asked earlier about the changes in leather as far as holsters go. Well, cost, maintenance and weight all come into play here. One, GOOD holsters are expensive, yeah, you can get a cheap one that will fall apart in a fight or spend upwards of $75 just for a good holster. A serious belt, anther 50, magazine pouches, radio holster, flashlight pouch, glove pouch, Taser holster, OC pouch, belt keepers, it all adds up quickly. Getting soaked in rain, scraped up in brawls all take a toll on leather. Nylon/Kydex are water proof, lighter and more scratch resistant. Leather coats have also skyrocketed in price like anything else made from quality leather and the new synthetics can be replaced every few years, and also are more efficient. The Sam Browne has been replaced by suspenders as more gear is added to be carried. The appearance of the thigh rig holster or lowered drop style is due to wearing body armor as a high ride holster is sometimes awkward to draw from while wearing a vest. Also, the new security holsters have saved many officers lives by defeating snatch attempts by attackers. It is commonly seen on prison yards, older cons teaching young cons how to strip an officer's gun. And believe me, even though vests are hot, we wear them because we know fellow officers [or ourselves] who they have saved. [and yeah, I'm a member of the Kevlar Club]

Annixter · Apr 10, 2014

While many of these San Francisco police officers aren't wearing traditional uniforms, they certainly seem to be carrying themselves with authority. I think if an officer wears any uniform with attention to detail (as in clean, ironed, and orderly) the uniform commands authority. Do I like the aesthetics of older, traditional uniforms better than t-shirts and cargo pants? Yes. Do I think they are practical for many tasks of modern San Francisco crime fighting and crime prevention? Nope.

1315565237-bart-police-arrest-journalists-and-journalism-students-during-protest_822785.jpg

San_francisco_police_officers_mission_district,_san_francisco_(2012)_(7276005388).jpg

Tomasso · Apr 10, 2014

Annixter said:
View attachment 12417

What silliness.

Huertecilla · Apr 10, 2014

Modern day cataphracts.
Just try to get your mind around this.
This is políce equiped against civilians. Structurally organised. What it tells me is that there is something structurally wrong with modern society if a social orde must be maintained thís way

In the US btw we are seeing a privatisation of this. Of the maintaining of the estabished order. That is the most dangerous of all. In effect this is the same as what lead to the rule of the bands in 14th C. Europe. Private armies ruling society in a fragile partnership with those who officially hold the rights to exploit a territory, which is after all what a country is....
We are witnissing history recurring as it happens; the privatisaton of US national ´security´.

You are correct Fastuni. For positive respect and not just fear, police needs to ÉARN respect on the basis of what they dó in the perception of the people. That is where things get impossible today because today they are increasingly oppressive and tax collecting.
Imo the idea of the benevolant respect earning Police is a difficult one, a utopian wish, perhaps a product of marketing them, as they are to all extends and purposes the modern version of the feudal armed faction.
They are an inevitable phenomenum to maintain order. Whtath they subsequently have to do depends on the order they need to maintain.

Tomasso · Apr 10, 2014

This is the case of police departments using their 9/11 windfall to go on spending sprees and buy all the latest kits and gadgets. Sadly misdirected funds IMO.

Edward · Apr 10, 2014

Huertecilla said:

When the zombie plague happens, I totally want me some of that body armour!

Shangas · Apr 10, 2014

Edward said:
When the zombie plague happens, I totally want me some of that body armour!

Haven't you watched that Walking Dead episode where they find the prison? I don't think riot-gear is going to help.

gman41 · Apr 10, 2014

I'm not so certain police are looking for any admiration or love. There are how many million truck drivers in the USA yet we have no TV shows about them. We do have a boatload of shows about police. There is a fascination the public has with them and many think they know enough to judge their actions and have an expertise on their job. In America we are armed and have the right to detain people, and even use deadly force in certain instances which will then be reviewed by prosecutors to see if we acted correctly. There are things such as this, and the ability to be armed 24 hours a day that sets police apart from the mainstream and causes this fascination. Here in America some women are enamored with police and seek them out as mates.

The Sam Brown is the cross strap sideways on the body. This has been around for centuries and is nothing new. I believe it was a British invention or innovation but I am not certain.

Holsters now have security devices in them so people cannot remove the weapons from them while you are struggling with them. Only the wearer can do it more easily but it still can be removed by others, especially if they know what they are doing. Convicts train to do this and there are videos of them practicing this in prison.

I wear all leather. Most wear Pleather...or a laminate type material made by safari land. There are still special craftsman out there such as Ted Blocker or Tex Shoemaker who make all leather items and custom leather work. Check out their sites. The leather is more flexible than the laminate and breaks in. Nylon is a new fabric being used more and more since it is cheaper and lighter. I do not like it myself.

There are flat patterns, basket weave patterns, and Clarino or gloss, high polish type leathers.

There are many hats worn by the USA police as well.

We know what we do is not popular, that is just a fact. Perhaps grim, but true. Our wives feel it too when they tell co workers they are married to a cop.

Tomasso · Apr 10, 2014

gman41 said:
There are how many million truck drivers in the USA yet we have no TV shows about them...

Au contraire......

BIG RIG BOUNTY HUNTERS
Network: History Channel
Premiered: February 2013
AIRS: Thursdays, 8 p.m. / 7 p.m. Central; full episodes online at history.com

ICE ROAD TRUCKERS
Network: History Channel
Premiered: June 2007
AIRS: Reruns on History Channel; full episodes online at history.com

AMERICAN TRUCKER
Network: SPEED
Premiered: February 2011
AIRS: Thursdays, 10 p.m. ET / full episodes online at speedtv.com

TRUCK STOP USA
Network: Great American Country TV (gactv.com), reruns on Travel Channel
Premiered: 2011 on Travel Channel
AIRS: GACTV, reruns on Travel Channel

SHIPPING WARS
Network: A&E
Premiered: January 2012
AIRS: Reruns on A&E on weekends, clips on aetv.com

HudsonHawk · Apr 10, 2014

gman41 said:
We know what we do is not popular, that is just a fact. Perhaps grim, but true. Our wives feel it too when they tell co workers they are married to a cop.

I don't know what kind of people you hang around, but this is simply not true with the public at large. They know what you do is important. That's why they've hired you.

Tomasso · Apr 10, 2014

HudsonHawk said:
I don't know what kind of people you hang around, but this is simply not true with the public at large.

If you give any merit to polls, then yes, the police rate pretty high when compared to other American institutions.

From the good folks at Gallup, albeit a bit stale:

3rd poll down from top

HudsonHawk · Apr 10, 2014

Tomasso said:
If you give any merit to polls, then yes, the police rate pretty high when compared to other American institutions.

From the good folks at Gallup, albeit a bit stale:

3rd poll down from top

I'm sure people squawk about getting a traffic ticket or fuss about being told something or other, but in general, the public understands that they need someone to enforce their laws and are appreciative of the effort.

Edward · Apr 10, 2014

gman41 said:
In America we are armed and have the right to detain people, and even use deadly force in certain instances which will then be reviewed by prosecutors to see if we acted correctly. There are things such as this, and the ability to be armed 24 hours a day that sets police apart from the mainstream and causes this fascination.

I imagine the much wider availability of firearms to citizens in the US (as compared to, say, here in the UK) also creates a different dynamic than would be the csse in some other places.

Here in America some women are enamored with police and seek them out as mates.

I think that sort of uniform fetish is fairly common globally, though there's a pronounced gender difference - when a woman has a thing for a man in uniform, it's considered cute or admirable, whereas when a man does it, it's widely perceived as a bit sleazy. so it seems to me here anyhow. In the UK now, though, there's a high profile dating website for those who specifically seek a partner who is in a uniformed occupation, or work in such themselves. [huh]

The Sam Brown is the cross strap sideways on the body. This has been around for centuries and is nothing new. I believe it was a British invention or innovation but I am not certain.

I've heard it said recently there's some dispute as to the origins, but traditionally it has always been attributed to the design of Sam Browne VC, who as a young British Army officer in Indie last his left arm. In those days, officers were still issued with a sword, which was mounted to a regular belt with a frog on the left hand side (this in the days when it was assumed they'd be right handed and there was no preparedness to accomodate otherwise. Of course, I in Generation X was among the first not to have being a lefty beaten out of me at school). When running into battle with pistol drawn in the right hand, the belt would jiggle about and the sword get in the way.... and Browne no longer had a left arm to hold it still. Supposedly he came up with the idea of the diagonal strap across the body to keep the belt in place (a later variant also had two straps, worn vertically, to provide support at both sides). These days it's far more likely to be a holstered pistol being supported by the SB belt. They rapidly spread all overf the world, though - both to official armies and those less so (they were extremely popular with ununiformed IRA regulars during the Irish War of Independence 1919-21).

I wear all leather. Most wear Pleather...or a laminate type material made by safari land. There are still special craftsman out there such as Ted Blocker or Tex Shoemaker who make all leather items and custom leather work. Check out their sites. The leather is more flexible than the laminate and breaks in. Nylon is a new fabric being used more and more since it is cheaper and lighter. I do not like it myself.

Leather is bound to be more breathable than synthetics, surely? (Another way I think nature is often best...).

gman41 · Apr 10, 2014

Those are trucker reality shows some of which have been taken off the air. None of which were really any good to begin with.

Please show me a trucker show such as the old "movin On" from the 1970s. A drama such as CSI and Blue Bloods but with truckers.

Chrome · Apr 10, 2014

Nice discussion here, like said before Police must earn authoritative position. One way to earn it is by looking intimidating so everyone will notice them. Is that good way to protect and serve? in my opinion is no it isn't, but who am I to say

I understand that officers realise the possibility of personal harm and do everything to evade it or at least can make decision when take risks. USA is different playground compared to europe and if everyone carries gun they feel safer and more paranoid knowing that everyone might be armed..

Look for photos of Italian police, they have quite many organizations and uniforms differ from each other. They have traditions visible also. Personally I like more visible uniforms as those gets noticed from further away. Man in dark T-shirt gets noticed when you see his assault rifle and even then you won't ask his help. Hats are helpful here (not ballcaps).

I also found this: http://www.designdenhaag.eu/police-uniforms There is plenty of rain in UK

Personally I'd collect more Finnish police stuff but those are not around like militaria and there is no Repro makers.

Tomasso · Apr 11, 2014

gman41 said:
Please show me a trucker show such as the old "movin On" from the 1970s. A drama such as CSI and Blue Bloods but with truckers.

I see, you meant TV dramas when you said TV shows. Yeah, over the years the law enforcement as well as the medical, political and legal fields seem to have been over-represented on TV. Might be laziness on the part of the TV industry.

Vintage lover · Jun 3, 2014

I always liked the uniform of our State Police. They walk around in in cap and strap and it looks great.

If you want more friendly and professional police, get a bunch of people together, march to city hall, and have a few words with the people with the padded pockets. The politicians have the most say over hiring standards, training methods, and uniform design. Lapel cameras go a long way toward ensuring professionalism as well. I could go deeply into details, but this is a uniform thread, not a law enforcement reform or political thread.

I also like the uniforms of the Italian police, but I am admittedly a rather eccentric dandy.

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