Full Grain v. Top Grain

Gotta love the evolution of this thread.

I don’t think we can properly evaluate the comparative virtues of full v. top grain based on a few, isolated pieces of leather selected and offered by certain posters to prove their point (e.g., hides that are extreme examples). Among high quality horse hides, there is considerable variation in the grain/texture from piece to piece, and one piece of the same horse hide may appear more textured/grainy than a different piece of the same hide. I have seen this countless times. Therefore, any of us can find a less textured/grainy hide from one manufacturer and compare it to a more textured/grainy hide from a different manufacturer. To make matters even more complicated, Shinki/Horween/Italian tanneries produce many different types of horse hides, and the finish of the individual hides vary accordingly (for example, Shinki is one of only two producers of shell cordovan). To further complicate the analysis, as JC observed, individual purchasers of leather specify particular finishes and, therefore, the individual hides produced by Shinki/Horween/Italian tanneries vary according to the individual specifications of the individual purchasers. Based on the foregoing, there is little to be discerned by comparing a random hide from one tannery to specifically selected hide from another; there are far too many variables to draw any meaningful conclusions.

I personally do not care for the yellowish Shinki hide posted by BK. That said, I have never seen a jacket made out of that hide (and I would not purchase such a jacket). On the other hand, I have seen many Shinki hides that utterly captivate me. Here are three examples (the first is from Himel, the second is from Freewheelers, and the third is my RMC):







These hides are a far better representative of Shinki's product and a better comparison to the Victory hide previously posted by BK (which, IMHO, is a gorgeous hide) (yes, I fully recognize that I am engaging in the same selective comparison that I previously criticized). I hope to be able to post photos of a Himel Canuck -- that is being sewn today -- in a week or so.

The following are a couple of photos of BK's horsehide jackets from its website:







Beautiful hides for sure!!! Are they better looking hides than the Shinki hides? That is obviously a subjective determination that will vary from person to person.

In my original post, I asked whether it matters to us, as consumers, if our jacket is made from full or top grain. Based on the contents of this thread, I personally have reached the conclusion that it does not matter one iota. At most, the distinction between full and top grain impacts the subjective appearance/aesthetic of the jacket – it has no impact on longevity, the previously described “use value,” or any other objective considerations. Therefore, if I like the appearance/aesthetic of the jacket, I do not see any reason to care whether it is full or top grain. There are gorgeous full grain jackets and there are gorgeous top grain jackets – there are also unattractive full and top grain jackets. Given that the objective considerations are a wash, buy what you like, regardless of whether it is full or top grain.

I thought I'd throw in some pics of my shinki Aero:







Any comments on top/full grain-ness of it?

Sloan, do Aero use Shinki by default as their mid-weight hide or was this from a sample batch?

Gorgeous hide Sloan.

Rude, I think it was a one off.

Sloan, I can't believe you would be seen in public with that non-full grain atrocity of a jacket.

Use value v exchange value.....

Ricardo or Marx?

Thanks, gentlemen, may not be full-grained (I have no idea), but shinki is a very characterful hide. Rudie, while this was made from a sample, as far as I know they are looking at making it an option.

Jeez, does it really matter? Here's the sleeve of my Johnson's Leather halfbelt. It's cow. It's only 3oz thick and it isn't full grain. I couldn't be happier with the quality.

Click to enlarge

Seb Lucas said:

Jeez, does it really matter?

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Only to an aficionado. And of course to a maker who is looking to keep their costs down.

I will add this picture for those who are interested

I have a BK Russet House A2 that I bought in 2012, and it is some of the nicest looking horsehide I've seen (the jacket turned up stinking of cigarette smoke, but I think that was more the knits than the leather, and not really relevant here). It's totally different to the Horween CXL Aero I have, which is thick and heavy, but it's horses for courses and both are perfect for their application. I'd also love to have a Shinki horsehide jacket one day; some of Diamond Dave's jackets look superb.

One thing is for certain...when I first became interested in high end repro vintage jackets in 2000, the choice of leathers was vastly inferior to the choice we have today. Then it was Real McCoy Japan and NZ that had the best leathers.

andyfalzon said:

Your constant objections and comments are well noted and respected. The "poor" example of Shinki was what Shinki thought appropriate to send us as sample in order that we buy from them. So I guess if its good enough for them for this task, it should be good for you too. So I guess calling it poor is poor choice of words. The debate here is not which tannery makes the best leather but rather if full grain is better looking than top grain. Since it retains all of its grain intact I 'd say full grain looks better. All the tanneries I know would agree with this reality.

No doubt that there are some beautiful Shinki leathers out there, but if one wants to be objective, he should put them side by side with full grain and observe the differences. If you care to do that and can pay all costs involved, we can send you a couple of jackets to see for yourself.

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Does Bill Kelso send samples of leather and lining, like other A2 jacket makers? I would like to have a close look at the leather and lining fabric. Some comparisons are difficult to make with only pictures on a computer screen.

They did send me a couple of leather samples last year when I asked for them. Now they have so many different hides (and linings) to choose from, makes deciding on one much more difficult.

There are only a few I hope to examine (Victory, Liberty, plus lining fabric). Thor, did they charge you for these or were they complimentary?

Nope, there was no charge for the samples Foster.

Thanks! I will email them and see if I can get some samples also.

Pictured Real McCoy's jacket.



No poor leather examples here.

Zoom on the zipper





Hair follicles clearly visible (i.e. top grain).

full size photos here
http://s22.postimg.org/ne15f9xz5/02112149_4b73fce974fe3.jpg
http://s22.postimg.org/ex68i3io1/02112150_4b73fcfe1a128.jpg

Andy, I sent an e-mail last week to see if I can get leather samples, but have not heard anything from the BK team. Sometimes my email address goes into junk mail folders. Are samples still available? Thanks.

Foster said:

Andy, I sent an e-mail last week to see if I can get leather samples, but have not heard anything from the BK team. Sometimes my email address goes into junk mail folders. Are samples still available? Thanks.

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Hi,
Will check if your email ended up in the spam.
Meanwhile please note any samples requests will be fulfilled after Easter.