Full Grain v. Top Grain

Nice.

Maybe we weren't very clear about it... so please let me clarify what our slogan 'Best In The World' means. It does not refer to comparing full grain with top grain. (No need to do that).

It refers to Victory horsehide and means that it is the best among full grain horse leathers, i.e. "Best (full grain) in the World".

There is full grain and there is... full grain. We have seen several full grain hides from various tanneries. No other can come even close to Victory horse. That's how the name "Victory" came up, nothing can beat it.
That is not only a matter of the quality of the raw material but of the quality of its tanning too.

From what Insurrection says on their Affiliate thread..they will offer this new option in concert with Aero at a later date. Seems they are now looking at different options. Did you even read the statement accompanying the 'Full Grain veg tanned'pics..??
HD

Aero have definately used veg tanned leather before .. in fact I had a Longshoremen made from Veg Tanned Seal Brown Horsehide.

In fact the Connolly Leather tannery which produced the raw material for the late 80's and early 90's Highwayman jackets was veg tanned if I remember correctly ( t was a LONG time ago). My Connolly leather highwayman ( which I sold to Ken) was definately struck through and was beautiful hide very soft and supple and had a fabulous hand.

I think they have used various veg tanned hides through the years including some of Horween's veg tanned product ( see the Longshoreman comment above).

Always good to see vendors raising the bar as far as leather jackets are concerned. We all benefit!

+1 well said Thor ..... if it benefits the consumer .. I'm all for it

Is this means these leather only available for Insurrection customers? Not from the official Aero website. I am kind of lost here...

HoosierDaddy said:

From what Insurrection says on their Affiliate thread..they will offer this new option in concert with Aero at a later date. Seems they are now looking at different options. Did you even read the statement accompanying the 'Full Grain veg tanned'pics..??
HD

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zhz said:

Is this means these leather only available for Insurrection customers? Not from the official Aero website. I am kind of lost here...

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You'd need to ask Insurrection or Aero that question.
HD

Plumbline said:

Aero have definately used veg tanned leather before .. in fact I had a Longshoremen made from Veg Tanned Seal Brown Horsehide.

In fact the Connolly Leather tannery which produced the raw material for the late 80's and early 90's Highwayman jackets was veg tanned if I remember correctly ( t was a LONG time ago). My Connolly leather highwayman ( which I sold to Ken) was definately struck through and was beautiful hide very soft and supple and had a fabulous hand.

I think they have used various veg tanned hides through the years including some of Horween's veg tanned product ( see the Longshoreman comment above).

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Aero have been using a nice veg tanned goat from around 2002 on.

As for Connolly, I reckon it may have been chrome tanned. I've got an old issue of Car magazine with an article about the company when it was in London. The hides were photographed coming out of the bath purple blue.
They may of had veg pits elsewere not shown.

zhz said:

?..there is no way to see the quality of the leather from it, it looks like a beef jerky to me...

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It is my understanding from reading these threads that only one jacket maker uses proper, full grain, veg tanned horse hide. All others are indeed using beef jerky as it is cheap and accessible. Smells great out of the box but it's not very durable and it's high in sodium.

You misunderstand my point, I am talking about the photos they posted not the real quality of the leather. That photo is really bad quality and make the leather looks like something else!! I cant judge the quality of the leather unless I see/touch it!
But on the other hand, I understand/agree your point.

Tarwater said:

It is my understanding from reading these threads that only one jacket maker uses proper, full grain, veg tanned horse hide. All others are indeed using beef jerky as it is cheap and accessible. Smells great out of the box but it's not very durable and it's high in sodium.

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zhz said:

You misunderstand my point, I am talking about the photos they posted not the real quality of the leather. That photo is really bad quality and make the leather looks like something else!! I cant judge the quality of the leather unless I see/touch it!
But on the other hand, I understand/agree your point.

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Of course. I'm just joking in the spirit of where this thread has gone. Certainly the quality of leather doesn't top out at the quality of a single picture.

ETA: and I'm sure many of us are looking forward to some better pics and feedback.

Tomasso said:

It's interesting that some here are intent on slaying the messenger.

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The 'Messenger' (even a leather jacket maker ..or especially a jacket maker) can contribute very well to a topic about how to identify different types of leather..but when taking that extra step to this: "No other can come even close to Victory horse". "That's how the name "Victory" came up, nothing can beat it"...They have become the 'Advertiser' for their product at any opening in any leather topic...in my view.
HD

May I suggest if it has a super heavy grain the proprietary name "Warthorse"

There is a subtle, but very important, difference between objective information and subjective proclamations. For example, setting forth the objective characteristics of full grain leather, a particular tanning process, or a particular variety of leather is informative and appreciated. Likewise, objective photo comparisons are wonderful. Conversely, insisting that a particular leather is “superior” to other leathers in appearance or quality is subjective and less beneficial.

This thread has been wildly informative and much of that objective information has come from Andy. Thank you Andy. Your photo comparisons and analysis have been particularly informative. I now have a better understanding of full grain and top grain leather. On the other hand, this thread has also included proclamations of superiority and ad hominem references that take away from the sharing of objective information.

This thread has led me to conclude that the distinction between full grain and top grain leather is of no consequence to me and will not impact my jacket purchases going forward. There are two interrelated reasons for this. First, it appears that the distinction between full grain and top grain can only been seen under magnification. I frankly do not care about aesthetic differences that are only visible under magnification. Moreover, the differences revealed under magnification are, IMHO, of little consequence. Second, I absolutely love the appearance of certain top grain leathers – Shinki in particular – and I will not be dissuaded from purchasing them simply because there are inconsequential differences visible only under magnification. Andy, no need to climb back on the bully pulpit and dispute my opinion – lets just agree to disagree.

The other thing I have learned from this and other threads is that BK uses outstanding leather and makes some great jackets. As I have told Andy privately, I think he should let the quality of his jackets speak for themselves through objective information and photo comparisons, rather than constantly proclaiming them “superior.” If you are a Ferrari salesman, you need not tell everyone that your car looks better than every other car on the planet. Instead, educate potential customers about the objective virtues of the Ferrari, show them photo comparisons, and let them reach their own conclusion regarding relative superiority. I personally am seriously considering the purchase of a BK jacket – not because Andy says its best – rather, because the objective data has led me to conclude that BK uses outstanding leather and makes great jackets.

" – not because Andy says its best – rather, because the objective data has led me to conclude that BK uses outstanding leather and makes great jackets".

There ya go...and others do as well. Different appearances...unique characteristics..aging..patina..grain..all for the customer to choose from. If from a top maker that also includes a hide that will most likely last to hand down to your Kids..and maybe even Grandkids.
HD

HoosierDaddy said:

The 'Messenger' (even a leather jacket maker ..or especially a jacket maker) can contribute very well to a topic about how to identify different types of leather..but when taking that extra step to this: "No other can come even close to Victory horse". "That's how the name "Victory" came up, nothing can beat it"...They have become the 'Advertiser' for their product at any opening in any leather topic...in my view.
HD

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I don't disagree with you, HD. But the fact is that most all practical, hands-on, information concerning just about any product is held by those with a commercial interest in that product. The price for that knowledge is the sales pitch; which can be as elegant as simply being handed a business card or as heavy handed as a Billy Mays infomercial. We're getting something nearer the later here but, frankly, I consider it a small price to pay for quality info. Just my opinion.

I too am happy to turn a blind eye to the sales pitch, I'm just glad he doesn't use an exclamation mark at the end of every sentence like some other vendors. Andy is obviously passionate about his leathers, and makes great jackets; I appreciate some don't like his approach to 'marketing' but why bother reacting to it if that's the case? It all goes downhill pretty quickly from there.

mattp said:

I too am happy to turn a blind eye to the sales pitch, I'm just glad he doesn't use an exclamation mark at the end of every sentence like some other vendors. Andy is obviously passionate about his leathers, and makes great jackets; I appreciate some don't like his approach to 'marketing' but why bother reacting to it if that's the case? It all goes downhill pretty quickly from there.

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Poor marketing and stentorian sales pitch is a great turn off. You can't help but react badly to it. And it totally overshadows the product.

I find it entertaining and somewhat refreshing in a Madison Ave. world. I certainly didn't buy a BK jacket because Andy says he has the best leather in the world nor would I bet on Muhammad Ali or Joe Namath because they they said they were the best. I admire passion, especially when it comes with a money back guarantee.

Yeah, I learned long ago to tune out the hyperbole and focus on the product. Do I prefer the soft sell, sure, but if a maker/ seller does in fact have the real goods I'll put up with a bombastic presentation.