Possible origin of the use of X's for price/quality level designation

VetPsychWars · Jun 9, 2014

I think the origin story is plausible, and let us remember that universal literacy is a recent phenomenon. People would have been able to count, because you need that a whole lot more than you needed to read, and anyone can count X's. I'm perfectly willing to believe it started as documented, and just carried on because that's what people did.

Tom

Stanley Doble · Jun 9, 2014

It occurs to me that this was written before the Hudson's Bay Company was chartered, and most of the beaver pelts came from the French colonies in North America, and also from the northern or New England colonies.

So, the bever hattes fetched from beyond the seas could have been of French manufacture.

The Hudson Bay Company was to make an end run around the French colonies on the St. Lawrence river by going in through Hudson's Bay to the north.

The company was incorporated by English royal charter in 1670 as The Governor and Company of Adventurers of England trading into Hudson's Bay and functioned as the de facto government in parts of North America before European states and later the United States laid claim to some of those territories. It was at one time the largest landowner in the world, with the area of the Hudson Bay watershed, known as Rupert's Land, having 15% of North American acreage. From its long-time headquarters at York Factory on Hudson Bay, the company controlled the fur trade throughout much of the English and later British controlled North America for several centurie

buler · Jun 9, 2014

The Gentleman's Magazine, from 1861, has the 16th century quote and also mentions other goods from the time denoting value with roman numerals.

Gentleman's Magazine

A book, Two Centuries of Costumes in America, from 1903, also has the 16th century passage about the bever hats (XX, XXX, etc.). The whole chapter (VII) on hats is an interesting read on hat history.

Two Centuries of Costumes in America

Also, the Saturday Magazine, from 1833, pages 20 and 21. More interesting history of the hat and the same 16th century mention.

Saturday Magazine 1833

B

Baron Kurtz · Jun 9, 2014

Possible and plausible. A serious contender theory.

Will we ever know for sure? No.

mayserwegener · Jun 9, 2014

Side note: The hat histories are very Anglo-American centric.

buler · Jun 9, 2014

mayserwegener said:
Side note: The hat histories are very Anglo-American centric.

Steve, does that translate to, "You can't believe everything you read."?

B

mayserwegener · Jun 9, 2014

They are definitely written from an Anglo viewpoint. You also see that in the American hat trade publications of the late 1800s and early 1900s.

VetPsychWars · Jun 9, 2014

mayserwegener said:
They are definitely written from an Anglo viewpoint. You also see that in the American hat trade publications of the late 1800s and early 1900s.

That's not surprising. The English immigrants, like anyone who came earlier, disdained the later immigrants for many reasons, their accents, their religion, their different traditions... New York, Philadelphia, and Boston were the REAL United States, and to heck with anyone else.

Tom

KingAndrew · Jun 9, 2014

This is very interesting.

It is certainly true that 16th Century London was a place where both cash and barter were important in different parts of the economy. And it also true that the price of bread (and some items like wool caps) remained stable over centuries, although there were certainly variables of quality and local practices.

These references are Anglo-centric. Since they come from English-language publications, that is not too surprising. My question to the many Loungers who reside in countries with other languages would be: what do the references in your language say? Do we have early German, French, Spanish, or Italian writings about beaver hats that might shed light on this issue?

I also wonder, did they use Xs on felt hats in Germany and France, or were the X designations an Anglo thing, too?

If anyone has knowledge on those points, it would add much to this discussion. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about continental hatmaking to do more than ask these questions.

mayserwegener · Jun 10, 2014

KingAndrew said:
This is very interesting.

These references are Anglo-centric. Since they come from English-language publications, that is not too surprising. My question to the many Loungers who reside in countries with other languages would be: what do the references in your language say? Do we have early German, French, Spanish, or Italian writings about beaver hats that might shed light on this issue?

I also wonder, did they use Xs on felt hats in Germany and France, or were the X designations an Anglo thing, too?

If anyone has knowledge on those points, it would add much to this discussion. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about continental hatmaking to do more than ask these questions.

I have searched through a fair amount of German and Austrian hat information (trade papers, catalogs, books) and I have never seen the use of Xs for grading or pricing Beaver hats or felts (although it's possible).

Beaver felts denser so it's extremely durable but it doesn't produce shinny finishes and brilliant colors as well as some types of Hare. This is something you will see mentioned from the Austrian / German perspective because they specialized in those type of finishes. Most felts were fur blends that were color (rarely mentioned here) / finish specific. For example they wouldn't use a High Quality Velour (Black) blend to produce a High Quality Smooth (Black) finish.

Side note:

By the way Borsalino used Xs (some mention Beaver / Castoro and some don't). Also not sure how far it goes back (I have only seen examples from the 1950s) or if they were market specific. I don't recall seeing them on any German market Borsalinos.

buler · Jun 11, 2014

This is from a magazine from 1832. Mentions the price of a beaver hat in 1627. 37 shillings.

B

Landman · Jun 11, 2014

The feather cost almost as much as the hat. Twenty shillings for the feather and 37 shillings for the hat. Is the hat band another option for an additional three pounds? This has nothing to do with our discussion of the origin of X's but the total cost of the hat in this article is confusing to me.

mayserwegener · Jun 11, 2014

Side note: I am pretty sure Beaver hats (as described in the articles from the early 1800s) were made with felt sheets (similar to Silk Plush which came later) and had long hair finishes (similar to Velour). At least that is the way I have heard them described. They weren't soft felt hats.

mayserwegener · Jun 11, 2014

Landman said:
The feather cost almost as much as the hat. Twenty shillings for the feather and 37 shillings for the hat. Is the hat band another option for an additional three pounds? This has nothing to do with our discussion of the origin of X's but the total cost of the hat in this article is confusing to me.

Also not sure what is meant by "As for the others, either beaver or felts ....."? Was the beaver hat in this case felted?

Stanley Doble · Aug 13, 2014

Landman said:
The feather cost almost as much as the hat. Twenty shillings for the feather and 37 shillings for the hat. Is the hat band another option for an additional three pounds? This has nothing to do with our discussion of the origin of X's but the total cost of the hat in this article is confusing to me.

The hatter's bill might have looked like this:

Hat, 37 shillings ( or 1 pound 17 shillings)
Hat band, 60 shillings ( or 3 pounds)
Feather, 20 shillings ( or 1 pound)

Total, 117 shillings or 5 pounds 17 shillings

at the time 5 pounds 17 shillings was about the same as 997.60 pounds today, or $1673.87 in American money.

"Prodigious folly" indeed!

buler · Oct 23, 2014

Interesting derby. An american hat company, other than Stetson, using the "SevenX" designation. Snyder's SevenX Quality.

B

alanfgag · Oct 24, 2014

Very cool mark.

buler · Nov 4, 2014

X's used with fur quality designation

More research

From fur trade review 1887

Fur trade review 1919

Fur trade review 1921

buler · Mar 8, 2023

X's used for grading fur for coats. 1912-1913.

Possible origin of the use of X's for price/quality level designation

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