All You Need to Know About Hat Etiquette

Asmo · Dec 9, 2014

jlee562 said:
If the facility provides no suitable accommodation and no unused chair is handy, a gentleman is justified in leaving it on, at a rakish angle proportionate with his degree of displeasure."

I love this part.

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Lotsahats · Dec 9, 2014

You're conflating what people wear and how they feel about it with the downfall of western civilization. That's a stretch. I work with lots of teens and young adults who would fail, abjectly, any social etiquette test you'd like to give them, yet they work evenings and weekends on their homework; make a point of spending time with their families; participate weekly in projects to improve the lives of the less fortunate; dedicate themselves to causes larger than their own lives; and otherwise work in countless large and small ways to make the world better for everyone around them. Maybe they don't know which fork to use, and maybe their pants sag, or maybe they're on their cell phones all the time; if you focus on these issues alone, HH, you're right: we're going to hell in a handbasket. But you'd also miss the far bigger point, and that is that people are working very much against this "bad for culture and bad for civilization" attitude you think they carry. So I might groan when I notice my son not hold the door for someone--but he can be taught that. What he has already learned--that this world is worth working for, and the people around him are worth working for--that's a far better lesson.

A

Mystic · Dec 9, 2014

A man should always take his hat off if he's wearing a red shirt, has his hand in his left front pants pocket and his wallet in his right back pocket...

However, if he sees another man wearing a red shirt with his hand in right front pocket and his wallet in his left back pocket......it's ok to wear his hat as long as the sun is shining...

Just to be polite, don't you know.........

HudsonHawk · Dec 9, 2014

Lotsahats said:
You're conflating what people wear and how they feel about it with the downfall of western civilization. That's a stretch. I work with lots of teens and young adults who would fail, abjectly, any social etiquette test you'd like to give them, yet they work evenings and weekends on their homework; make a point of spending time with their families; participate weekly in projects to improve the lives of the less fortunate; dedicate themselves to causes larger than their own lives; and otherwise work in countless large and small ways to make the world better for everyone around them. Maybe they don't know which fork to use, and maybe their pants sag, or maybe they're on their cell phones all the time; if you focus on these issues alone, HH, you're right: we're going to hell in a handbasket. But you'd also miss the far bigger point, and that is that people are working very much against this "bad for culture and bad for civilization" attitude you think they carry. So I might groan when I notice my son not hold the door for someone--but he can be taught that. What he has already learned--that this world is worth working for, and the people around him are worth working for--that's a far better lesson.

A

I'm not conflating anything, I'm saying one is symptomatic of the other (in fact I think I was quite clear that one was the symptom of the other, not that they were the same), though not in the exaggerated strawman way you present it. I'm saying that there is an attitude that if people are offended by your actions, that's their problem not yours. That's certainly my observation, backed up by direct quotes in this very forum, though I never said the world is going to hell in a handbasket, it was the downfall of civilization, or anything similar.

It's also interesting to note that your mind immediately went to teens and young persons, despite my never having brought it up nor it previously being part of the conversation. I would suggest that fact is telling about your own observations, whether you are willing to admit it or not.

Seb Lucas · Dec 9, 2014

Lotsahats said:
You're conflating what people wear and how they feel about it with the downfall of western civilization. That's a stretch. I work with lots of teens and young adults who would fail, abjectly, any social etiquette test you'd like to give them, yet they work evenings and weekends on their homework; make a point of spending time with their families; participate weekly in projects to improve the lives of the less fortunate; dedicate themselves to causes larger than their own lives; and otherwise work in countless large and small ways to make the world better for everyone around them. Maybe they don't know which fork to use, and maybe their pants sag, or maybe they're on their cell phones all the time; if you focus on these issues alone, HH, you're right: we're going to hell in a handbasket. But you'd also miss the far bigger point, and that is that people are working very much against this "bad for culture and bad for civilization" attitude you think they carry. So I might groan when I notice my son not hold the door for someone--but he can be taught that. What he has already learned--that this world is worth working for, and the people around him are worth working for--that's a far better lesson.

A

Nicely put, Lotsa. I agree.

Lotsahats · Dec 9, 2014

Thanks, Seb.

HudsonHawk said:
It's a symptom of a general attitude that is bad for business, bad for relationships, bad for culture and bad for civilization in general.

Your own words. And of course I went to my experience, just like you went to your experience; my experience is that there is every reason for hope for relationships, culture, and civilization.

A

HudsonHawk · Dec 9, 2014

Lotsahats said:
Your own words. And of course I went to my experience, just like you went to your experience; my experience is that there is every reason for hope for relationships, culture, and civilization.

A

I never said there wasn't. I said certain attitudes and behavior are bad for it.

And you're dodging the point about teens and young people.

jlee562 · Dec 9, 2014

HudsonHawk said:
"I just wear mine. Sorry if it offends anyone."

"I've never been one for rules of etiquette...Comfort often dictates whether I wear a hat indoors."

"How can you show respect for people who don't know, care or even notice that you are wearing a hat in the first place?"

"Whoever made up the hat rules is long gone so isn't going to complain no matter what we do."

"anyone who would like to comment on my wearing of a hat anywhere I please can show some real etiquette and keep their opinions to themselves."

"I think that gives me the right to rewrite my own rule book."

"But who cares what etiquette says? I for one, wish etiquette would slip away and quietly die."

"Anything else is do as one may please around here!"

"If you know how infrequently people thought about you, you wouldn't worry about what they think about you."

All comments from this thread or others just like it. There are many more examples, both in regards to hats and fashion in general. "Do whatever you want, whether others like it or not" is a very common theme around here. I know there are lots of people who have their own style. I might not like it, just as they might not like mine. But to pointedly disregard common courtesy crosses a line for me. And it's not so much that I expect people to always take their hat off when they should, or tip their hat, or any other particular gesture. It's the attitude of "I'll do what I want, to heck with everyone else" that bothers me. It's a symptom of a general attitude that is bad for business, bad for relationships, bad for culture and bad for civilization in general.

I'm sorry, I don't see the connection between the quotes above and the idea that one does not or should not "care what other people think of you."

What I see is some folks that think that some of the particular niceties of hat etiquette don't apply or are otherwise irrelevant. I think you've particularly misconstrued Aaron's quote, which offers the thought that others simply don't care enough about others OR hat etiquette to be offended by it.

Do I care what people think about me? Of course I do (e.g., my anecdote from "how do people react to your hat wearing?" the other day). Do I care if person x, y, or z is offended if I keep my hat on in an indoor space? Given that the convention in the modern day doesn't place weight on hat etiquette; no, I'm not particularly concerned with the outliers. Do I care about offending say, a relative/in-law by wearing a hat indoors? Sure, absolutely. Random person on the street? Not so much.

People don't "not care" about etiquette or disregard "common courtesy" because they don't adhere to your particular standards of etiquette and common courtesy.

HudsonHawk · Dec 9, 2014

jlee562 said:
I'm sorry, I don't see the connection between the quotes above and the idea that one does not or should not "care what other people think of you."

Obviously we don't see the same thing.

Do I care if person x, y, or z is offended if I keep my hat on in an indoor space? Given that the convention in the modern day doesn't place weight on hat etiquette; no

And this sums up the attitude with which I have a problem. First being that I think you're wrong about whether or not any weight on etiquette, and secondly, your indifference to offending people.

Lotsahats · Dec 9, 2014

HudsonHawk said:
I never said there wasn't. I said certain attitudes and behavior are bad for it.

And you're dodging the point about teens and young people.

I answered that statement directly, but I'll repeat it: I love working with teens and young adults, and I see tremendous positivity, energy, and enthusiasm in them, your attempts at psychoanalyzing me aside.

And fine, you don't see changes in behavior as being ultimately destructive even though you seem them as short-term corrosive. In that way, you echo the empty, cliche criticism of the next generation by the previous generation that stretches back to the beginning of recorded time.

A

jlee562 · Dec 9, 2014

HudsonHawk said:
Obviously we don't see the same thing.

Yes, you're dodging the point about the distinction I'm making.

Which leads to this strawman...

And this sums up the attitude with which I have a problem. First being that I think you're wrong about whether or not any weight on etiquette, and secondly, your indifference to offending people.

I'm not indifferent to offending people. I'm indifferent to offending people to hold onto irrelevant notions of what constitutes "etiquette" and "common courtesy" that are outside of the accepted norm.

Yes, I understand you believe that everybody is silently going around lamenting all the heads on everybody's head; but I think that's contrary to what the very meaning of "etiquette" means.

HudsonHawk · Dec 9, 2014

jlee562 said:
Yes, you're dodging the point about the distinction I'm making.

I'm not dodging anything. I gave you direct evidence. You chose to ignore it.

I'm not indifferent to offending people. I'm indifferent to offending people to hold onto irrelevant notions of what constitutes "etiquette" and "common courtesy" that are outside of the accepted norm.

First, they are not outside of the accepted norm. You're implying that I made up hat etiquette and no one else has any concept of what it is. Secondly, how is there any difference in the distinction you're trying to make?

Yes, I understand you believe that everybody is silently going around lamenting all the heads on everybody's head; but I think that's contrary to what the very meaning of "etiquette" means.

Talk about your straw men...

HudsonHawk · Dec 9, 2014

Lotsahats said:
I answered that statement directly, but I'll repeat it: I love working with teens and young adults, and I see tremendous positivity, energy, and enthusiasm in them, your attempts at psychoanalyzing me aside.

I'm not asking for an explanation of your statement, I'm asking how it's relevant to the current discussion, which has nothing to do with teens and young people. If you're just making a general statement, fine. I see the same things.

And fine, you don't see changes in behavior as being ultimately destructive even though you seem them as short-term corrosive. In that way, you echo the empty, cliche criticism of the next generation by the previous generation that stretches back to the beginning of recorded time.

A

I just don't get where you leap from "bad manners" = "the collapse of western civilization". And you're bringing generations into it again. I still don't know why.

JeffOYB · Aug 1, 2015

Hat etiquette OK to change with the times?

OK, this is a vintage forum. But it's also about hats. I'm wondering if it's OK to accept certain changes in hat etiquette now that hats are no longer worn so often. They're no longer uniform but are now more like individual fashion statements.

I do go by the basic maxim that the more formal the situation the more the classic hat etiquette is adhered to. ...Guys take them off indoors, seated, in formal or private situations, for instance.

Has there been acceptable change along these lines?

I accept hats-on when standing indoors in the bar area of a club or restaurant. Basically OK?

Some have wondered if it's OK to wear a straw hat indoors. Like, aren't these outdoor sun hats? I'm thinking this no longer applies so strictly. A light-colored sun-type hat seems fine indoors.

I suppose it's all been hashed out elsewhere. ...I've read some of those threads. Most seem to insist on old/classic standards and mention "the way it was in my grampa's day." I suggest that "times change" can be legit. If not for vintage re-enacting then for at least some aspects of modern attire.

Frunobulax · Aug 1, 2015

Well, we already have a thread devoted to this subject. I think it covers even the modern questions.

However, I have to ask - times have changed, does that mean manners and decorum have changed as well? Most of us on this forum, some pining for Grampa's day and some who are just not too thrilled with the social mores of today, believe that a certain type of manners and decorum are timeless.

Bob Roberts · Aug 1, 2015

Somewhat true but all within our own personal standards. At a very upscale restaurant when I'm wearing a suit NO HAT. At a wake or in a place of worship NO HAT. At a business meeting in an office NO HAT. Pretty much everything else is situationally FAIR GAME. Oh, I forgot... in Court, NO HAT.

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Frunobulax · Aug 1, 2015

In the other thread, I once made the point that we need to try to follow the etiquette whenever practically possible. Undoubtedly, the normal functioning of today's society makes it impractical in more situations than previously. You just have to remember to respect those around you and the situation you're in, I guess.

Bob, you can wear your hat in my office any old time you want, bud. I'll even let you put your feet on my desk!

Off-topic, sort of. I was at a meeting with some folks in a conference room recently, one that was set up for video conferencing. It was a pretty spartan room, and there was really no place to put my hat - all the seats taken, stuff on the conference table, etc. So I tossed it over the videoconference camera perched up on a shelf at the end of the room. Partially though the meeting, I noticed my hat move. A few minutes later, it moved again. I then realized that the camera was set up for voice recognition and, despite this meeting not being video-d, was turning to point at whoever was speaking. So the whole meeting (I think with most people trying to "not notice"), every time you spoke, my hat looked at you.

Bob Roberts · Aug 1, 2015

Ha ha ha! Did it tip itself to the Ladies? Now that's really "Hat Etiquette!"

Bob Roberts · Aug 1, 2015

Thx Fruno. I'll feel free to leave the hat on but no feet on the furniture.

theoldnorthwest · Aug 1, 2015

I do not intend to offend in any way and I respect the opinions of others but I have always wondered why it is necessary to remove a hat in a restaurant? What is so offensive about a person at a table in a hat?

All You Need to Know About Hat Etiquette

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