Pecards Dressing and the Smithsonian

AdeeC said:

Perhaps we all need a temperature controlled wardrobe and humidifier and only wear leather products in dim light?
I don't consider myself an expert but I have noticed over the years that well cared for and dressed leather items I owned last far longer than others that were never looked after. I think the museums are more into preserving original finishes in a static, stable "as is" condition rather than keeping them wearable or usable. Maybe Pecards told porkies. Not unusual or a big deal in the commercial world.
I find this argument similar to all the expert warnings and advice on what one should not eat. If followed diligently we will all starve.

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I agree with you 100%
They do not "use" items like we do. Totally different situations.

@Seb - thanks for posting this. Good info nonetheless.

I have discovered that baby wipes do wonder for removing greasy leather conditioner.

Monitor said:

I have discovered that baby wipes do wonder for removing greasy leather conditioner.

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Why did you use that to begin with? Preparation H is better... :lol:

I don't want to fight with anyone, but I don't consider claims that "conditioner has always worked for me" to be of much value unless backed up with some sort of proof, preferably of a quasi-scientific nature. I remember one guy on AAAT who bought one pair of chinos from several different brands (or was it shirts?) and then noted on a chart when he wore them, washed them, etc, so after six or eight months he was able to make some observations that he could back up. Also, I've learned that most people have terrible observation skills and don't really "see" things. Also, I never see a distinction in these debates between old versus new leather, jungle vs northern climate, good starting condition vs barely alive condition, etc. Some sort of chart would be nice. I doubt the same treatment applies to all. And then there's John Chapman and his tub of Vaseline...

Big J said:

I think it's absolutely correct to challenge assumptions and claims. Leather is organic. With the best will (and care) in the world, it will not endure forever.

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Among the footwear fan community there is a mistaken belief that a good quality pair of goodyear welted men's dress shoes properly cared for will last indefinitely. They mostly certainly will NOT and you'll be lucky if they last 10 years in wearable condition. Of course, I'm making the assumption that people will actually wear their shoes; if you don't wear them, or wear them only once a month tops, then they will last a lot longer. And they will probably never wear out in that case because your weight will change, your feet will get larger with age, and you won't be able to wear them anyways.

Doctor Damage said:

Among the footwear fan community there is a mistaken belief that a good quality pair of goodyear welted men's dress shoes properly cared for will last indefinitely. They mostly certainly will NOT and you'll be lucky if they last 10 years in wearable condition. Of course, I'm making the assumption that people will actually wear their shoes; if you don't wear them, or wear them only once a month tops, then they will last a lot longer. And they will probably never wear out in that case because your weight will change, your feet will get larger with age, and you won't be able to wear them anyways.

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The key is to not wear them everyday! Just owning 2 pairs of shoes and alternating daily will greatly increase the life of them.
Obviously you are wearing each pair only 50% as much as you would if you wore the same pair everyday, but most importantly your shoes have time to dry/rest in between wears.
I used to only have one pair of Frye boots, killed them in 2 years of daily use. I now have 4 pairs that i alternate throughout the week, and they all still look great even though some are going on 5 years.

Personally I do think the use of conditioners helps if the leather is in relatively good condition. If it has become cracked and dried then you cannot do anything with it, just the surface may stay in better condition. Really the user/wearer needs a long term comparison test, but how long?
I have used my personal favourite Ko Cho Line since the early 1980s and had no problems with my original Lucky 7 Seven A2(mentioned in various posts) in that time. Personally I don't think I will be around i another 35 years to do any comparisons on which is preferable. Well not that it would be of any advantage to me anyway.
I would be interested in what will become of our museums and contents but i do not have a time machine to fast forward to the 4th millennium, as in Tutankhamun's tomb, the leather parts of sandals etc had turned to a hard resin oner the thousands of years. Will that be the fate of our beloved A2 jackets in the future?
J

rocketeer said:

as in Tutankhamun's tomb, the leather parts of sandals etc had turned to a hard resin oner the thousands of years. Will that be the fate of our beloved A2 jackets in the future?
J

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Peat tannins are excellent leather preservatives: Iron Age bogmen. :eeek:

Anyone live near a bog...?

Good job Seb, thanks for looking into it and debunking another myth.

I agree with AdeeC's post above that leather items that have been cared for and conditioned last longer than than leather items not cared for.

As a long time rider of horses (as well as motorcycles), I have my own perspective on this topic. While my thoughts aren't backed up by the scientific method, I have almost 30 years experience with leather tack. So no one is confused by my terminology below, I ride "English" rather than "Western."

My primary equine sport has been foxhunting which is hard on horse and tack. The horse sweats profusely and the tack is damaged if not cared for. After every hunt, I take all tack, bridle, reins, breast plate, girth and stirrup leathers and soak in a solution of Lexol cleaner and water. This gets all of the sweat out of the tack. After it dries, I condition it with a high content glycerine saddle soap and Lexol conditioner. It is then put away clean and conditioned for the next use. Sometimes the next use may be the next week or years down the road, if that particular piece of tack is replaced due to a change in a horse of a different size, for example, or it may just get "lost."

I have found that tack that is used, and conditioned regularly, will show little to no signs of damage. Whereas, a piece of tack that is put away (after being cleaned and conditioned) and forgotten about for years will have cracked and be unsafe for use. My original bridle, while almost 30 years old is still soft and supple, even though it has seen very little use in 25 of those years. Other pieces of tack have cracked and become unusable in far less than that time. The difference? The bridle hasn't gotten "lost" and is conditioned every few years when I run across it. It may be dry and a bit stiff before being conditioned, but becomes soft and supple after an application of Lexol and glycerine saddle soap. I expect this bridle to still be usable for another 25 years because it has been cared for and conditioned on a regular basis.

Now, I'm not advocating the use of Lexol on leather jackets, in fact most of our jackets will do just fine for 15 or 20 years with no conditioning. My point is, in my experience, regular use of the proper conditioner will extend the life of leather, contrary to the views espoused in the article cited by The Smithsonian. YMMV

On the rare occasion when I have conditioned a naked leather jacket that got wet and dried stiff, I have found Pecard to do an excellent job of softening the leather. Hell, if it is good enough for the Smithsonian, it is good enough for me!

Interesting responses. For the record, over 30 years of collecting leather jackets I've always been an avid user of Pecards, Lexol or Dubbin and have always assumed they help. I too have seen stiff leather become pliable and wearable after application. Whether it has also broken down the fibres and taken from the overall lifespan of the jacket I can't really say. Anecdotal evidence is notoriously inexact and problematic. What I do believe is if you buy a new Aero jacket in FQHH, say, you do not need to treat it, perhaps ever.

My interest in this was really the Smithsonian link since so many, including me, have said - "If it's good enough for the Smithsonian… " Maybe this now becomes, "If it's not good enough for the Smithsonian it's good enough for me." Depending on your view of museum needs over the needs of an actual wearer. It's interesting how what was once useful info is now being reshaped.

I've said this before: I use both Pecard's and Dr. Jackson's.
I use them for different reasons (proper tool for the proper job). I think I'll give the Vasoline a try sometime soon. I agree that overdoing it is a problem, and I've learned to take it easy (but that's taken a couple of years). Patience doesn't come as a quick lesson unfortunately.
Thanks Seb for doing the research and giving us the facts and not the spin!

Comparing Smithsonian items with the stuff we deal with is comparing apples and oranges, I guess.

Current museum conservation techniques are relatively new in history. I doubt there was climate and humidity controls 50 or more years ago. Once upon a time they even used to put lacquer on paintings to preserve them. A museum leather artefact that is say 150 to 200 years old most likely would have received frequent old fashioned conditioning in the distant past to survive into the current new order and its scientific preservation methods.

As an aside, about 5 years ago, an old tip was discovered near my house during excavations for a new building. The area was once a centre for shoe manufacturing. In the tip were many shoes dating from the late 19th century. Going through them I was astounded in how good condition most were in. Some of the leather looked almost like new. However once exposed to the environment they deteriorated and crumbled rapidly within days. The anoxic environment preserved them in almost suspended animation.

my 8 fl oz conditioner is almost up, after 2 yrs.

out of that typically small bottle of 8 fl oz, how much would you use on a single jacket, how many treatments on a typical short jacket from that bottle?
just wondering if I'm doing it too little or too much

If it's Pecards, I'd have said two or three treatments. Any more and you risk over-saturation.

my 16oz tub has lasted 3 years- 4 pairs of boots, 8 jackets, and a sofa. It still has some left too.

IMHO, real world results are scientific. Are you logging days, temps, humidity, etc? Likely not, but as Pea and others stated, my results with about 40 years of riding motorcycles, horses and other activities where my gear is beaten and abused, yet still usable, speak volumes.
You can overdo it. You can ruin a good piece of gear. And you surely don't need much if anything for years after a hide is tanned and a jacket/saddle/boot made.
However, an annual cleaning and light coat of something will surely allow for more years of life.

Look at a WWII era A-2 - esp one made in horsehide. The neck fold is almost always rotted or broken and brittle. I reckon the sweat and salt and gunk from the human neck did that. So I make sure to clean that area on jackets with a folding collar made of leather. Certainly this piece will look good down the road where an untreated piece would similarly rot and fall apart. That's the "gamble" I'm willing to take.

Sloan1874 said:

How do you remove the stuff, John? I'm always anxious that I could overdo it by accident and render a jacket a soggy mess.

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There are solvents that Ian (Dr H) could advise on but I had to resort to washing by machine when I bought a sheepskin jacket that had dried on dressing on seams and thread.

I'd second the assertion that baby wipes do a GREAT job in removing overdressed gunk from leather jackets. They're also GREAT at cleaning dirt and muck from leather jackets.

As far as dressings go .... I must have used 100's of dressings, polishes, balms and conditioners in over 30 years of motorcycling, horse tack ownership and jacket collection .. from Mars Oil to Mink Oil. I haven't ever really had one which rotted my jacket or stitching .... Renapur has been good and I tend to steer clear of petroleum distillates unless I want to give something a little bit of a gloss. The key for me is sparing addition and less is more.

If a jacket is dirty ... it gets washed and conditioned .... seems to have worked so far and hasn't done any harm but then I'm no longer buying 70 year old jackets it's mostly 10-30 year old repros