Himel Brothers Leather Co.

Superfluous, just out of curiosity, when and where did you pull that pic of Himel's "inspiration" jacket?
Feel free to start a conversation

nick123 said:

Everyone love each other.

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ButteMT61 said:

Hey, I love my wife and kids, and we get to argue now and then too.

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No arguments here . . . merely a passionate and jovial discussion. This forum would be mighty boring if everyone liked the same things and agreed about everything.

Superfluous said:

Did you happen to notice the name of the album: "Torturing my friends for a fit." 'Nuff said.

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Yes, I did.

Love these discussions!

By the way. Sometimes I wished we would all actually sit on a big table and discuss these and many other things in real life!
Every one of us brings two jackets, I know it's a challenge.
Would love this so much!

I don't get it - so Himel got the idea to copy a design when he saw someone else copying it? I'm not buying it. What difference would that make, anyway, since both jackets are heavily inspired by an already existing design?

Superfluous said:

The decision to stop at $1,500 vs. $2,200, or $160,000 vs. $300,000, is a personal and subjective decision that largely defies logic. The notion that it is “rational” to spend $1,400 on an Aero Vicenza or $1,700 on a Good Wear, but it is irrational to spend $2,000 on a Himel, is comical. All of these expenditures are irrational. The only issue is the limits of one's irrationality. For me, personally, there is no meaningful difference between these figures – in other words, the additional few hundred dollars has no impact on my life. Therefore, as between these options, I buy what I like, and I do not attempt to justify or rationalize it. Rather, I accept that I am being irrational and enjoy the fruits of my irrationality. I work hard for the money and I damn well deserve to enjoy it.

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↑ That!
I'm super happy people are willing and able to spend $11,000 on any piece of clothes because life is great, but just that talking about how, I don't know, $2,200 jacket is not worth the additional three hundred, over a $1900 jacket does seem a bit... illogical. Been there, myself. Let's face it - you're not really getting anything for anything over a $300-something price tag. Leather, check; jacket, check. You're done. But yeah, I got into this was because I wanted a certain jacket just enough to justify to myself the crazy irrationality of spending this much money on it, realizing in the process that no justification was ever needed. And I know I would've done the same if the jacket in question was $3000.

Man, you are making A LOT of a assumptions vinny.

How do you feel about the slew of Cossack jackets that came out after Himels Heron?

And how do we know that when Himel says jackets will copy him, he's referring to SJC? Or instead others in the future that may not have begun yet?

Also, there are differences between the jackets, small ones, that clearly differentiate one as being more elegant than the other. Whether or not you care enough to pay for them is up to you, but you can't deny they're there.

I edited my post to reflect that mistake about 2 hours ago, I posted that really early where I am. What's the point of mentioning it, you surely know what I meant?

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if David Himel doesn't read forums about leather jackets. I am very interested in leathers and had no clue SJC was designing that jacket. Even when talking to prospective customers, Dave's responses are extremely short, like less than a sentence. From what I understand he's a very busy guy. I *think* he's the designer and handles everything else, Himel Bros is just him and the ladies who make his jackets.

Boy, this has really transcended into the absurd. To call Himel's pricing "exorbitant and totally unjustifiable", when others in the market are in the same neighborhood, and those in the fashion market sell at 2X to 5x these prices, at best seems only to be a cheap shot. Accusing him of theft without the slightest proof is unbecoming of this board. How long did you think it took David to design this jacket? He just threw it together in the last two weeks because the 5 or 6 new jackets he was going to unveil weren't enough? At the same time finishing up his other new models?

Is this jacket a new design or one that existed before? I've tried to read and comprehend this last batch of posts, but really, I don't.
And for me, the guys making the jackets can battle it out - I'm not going to come in here and fight for someone I don't know pretending to know who started first and who is copying who. I can't imagine anyone even buying that jacket, but maybe it's a popular style in other cultures? Anyhow, defending anyone here when we don't know all the facts seems crazy. And unless this is an original and new design, I just don't care.

Jinkies, can't y'all play nice?

@Superfluous - it might be a lost in translation thing, but over this part of the world 'upstart' is a perjorative term. I think Simon would see SJC more as a 'start up'. Every company is a start-up at some time, but not all are upstarts.

IT seems two different companies have taken inspiration from the same vintage jacket. No harm, no foul in my book. I don't think they're necesarily aiming at the same market with these jackets; I have the felling they're shooting for differnet price points, for one thing - which is in no way a slight on either. If Simon can brinbg out a very nice Grizzly at a lower price, chances are he'll sell to guys who are on the fence about a Grizzly. Guys like me who kinda like 'em, but aren't sure enough we'd get the wear out of them to stretch to an Aero, or even the Himel. Guys for whom it's the dream jacket and want the Himel will buy the Himel. Choice is good. If a design is popular, it's inevitable more folks will be interested in doing their version; if Brad Pitt wore a grizzly in his next film, we'd likely see as many jackets in that genre as there were A2 types inspired by Steve Macqueen. That's how the market works. Sometimes you're the guy who did it first and others follow, sometimes you're the follower. I suspect many repro companies have been on both ends of the curve.

Nobody 'owns' any vintage design, nobody owns any of the A2 contracts... long as nobody actually steals someone else's patterns (which involve a hell of a lot of labour and time to get right, and can be legally protected), it's no foul in my book.

Himel's prices... hey, well. They're too rich for my blood, beautiful as the jackets are. Still, I can admire them, and if there are folks who feel those prices are worth paying, fair play to them. If there weren't, Himel wouldn't be charging them - or not in business.

I don't see any of this as worth getting bent out of shape over - and I rather suspect that both David and Simon might agree. Perspective, see.

ButteMT61 said:

Is this jacket a new design or one that existed before? I've tried to read and comprehend this last batch of posts, but really, I don't.
And for me, the guys making the jackets can battle it out - I'm not going to come in here and fight for someone I don't know pretending to know who started first and who is copying who. I can't imagine anyone even buying that jacket, but maybe it's a popular style in other cultures? Anyhow, defending anyone here when we don't know all the facts seems crazy. And unless this is an original and new design, I just don't care.

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It's a vintage design, from way back when - the original photo appears a page or two ago.

pawineguy said:

Boy, this has really transcended into the absurd. To call Himel's pricing "exorbitant and totally unjustifiable", when others in the market are in the same neighborhood, and those in the fashion market sell at 2X to 5x these prices, at best seems only to be a cheap shot. Accusing him of theft without the slightest proof is unbecoming of this board. How long did you think it took David to design this jacket? He just threw it together in the last two weeks because the 5 or 6 new jackets he was going to unveil weren't enough? At the same time finishing up his other new models?

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^ This

Edward said:

it might be a lost in translation thing, but over this part of the world 'upstart' is a perjorative term. I think Simon would see SJC more as a 'start up'. Every company is a start-up at some time, but not all are upstarts.

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I genuinely had no idea. Rather, I equate “upstart” with “start-up” and did not intend anything pejorative.

Edward said:

IT seems two different companies have taken inspiration from the same vintage jacket. No harm, no foul in my book.

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^ This

Edward said:

It's a vintage design, from way back when - the original photo appears a page or two ago.

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^ This

Vinny,

Welcome to TFL. I must concede that I do not know who you are, but others here are apparently well aware of you and your posting habits. I was privately warned of your character and the likely course of your posts, and you have lived up to the warning in spades.

You start your post by commenting on my purported “justification” for Himel’s pricing. Reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit, as I made no effort to justify Himel’s pricing in my prior post. To the contrary, I described Himel’s pricing as “irrational” and “defying logic” – that is the antithesis of justification. Moreover, as PWG noted, Himel’s admittedly irrational pricing is in the same neighborhood as other well regarding vintage jacket makers, and well below inferior designer labels.

The remainder of your post consists of a character assassination of Himel and, to a lesser extent, me. Your sole point of criticism is your conclusion that Himel purportedly copied Simon’s jacket. Your sole evidence in support of your copying theory is that Simon released his jacket two weeks before Himel released his similar design. Based on this sequence and temporal proximity alone, without more, you conclude that Himel copied SJC, and you spend paragraph after paragraph denigrating Himel for this purported infraction.

Himel states that his inspiration was a particular vintage jacket (yes, Himel told me), and he even proffers a photograph of the exact jacket (I received the photo from Himel). You, of course, have no evidence to rebut Himel’s assertion that he based his design solely on the identified vintage jacket. You likewise have no evidence that Himel ever saw SJC’s jacket. Instead, you assume that Himel saw, and copied, SJC’s jacket, rather than the identified vintage jacket, based solely on temporal proximity. It is certainly your prerogative to make such an assumption. However, I personally do not believe the assumption is even remotely warranted.

Moreover, your assumption is completely inconsistent with, and belied by, Himel’s track record of reproducing vintage jackets that no one else has reproduced (e.g., the Heron, Canuck and Grizzly). Himel strives to locate jackets that have not yet been reproduced. Thus, if Himel had in fact seen SJC’s jacket – there is zero evidence of this – I strongly suspect that, consistent with his track record, he would have gone in a different direction.

You support your supposition regarding Himel’s conduct by reference to the purportedly stellar response received by SJC’s jacket, suggesting that Himel read the favorable comments regarding SJC’s jacket and, based thereon, decided to copy SJC. However, the reality is that SJC’s jacket received a largely negative response. M/M wrote: “It’s a bloody awful thing . . . you wear one of these, someone will ask you directions to the nearest Yates Wine Lodge . . . If you want to sell a few, offer a free brown bag to keep your bottle of white cider in . . . he would need hankies to wipe tears from folks eyes if he wore that jacket.” Sean Longden – a moderator of SJC’s forum – concurred with certain of M/M’s comments, and observed: “I'm no more likely to wear a grizzly than I would a 1970s, football manager, sheepskin jacket.” Sloan noted that he is “not so keen” on the jacket because “it’s a bit fussy.” Edward – a moderator of SJC’s forum – noted: “Not sure how big the market is for a Grizzly, though.” In response, SJC acknowledged that the market is very small and he is only aware of “a couple of people who want this version.” The majority of the thread is negative to middle of the road, with only a couple of clearly positive responses. This is the frenzied response that compelled Himel to copy the jacket? I think not. In fact, this type of response would dissuade someone from copying the jacket.

Your attempt to compare Himel to SB is entirely without merit. The evidence that SB copied Aero’s designs is overwhelming, and far surpasses mere temporal proximity concerning a single jacket. By way of example, the person who designed SB’s jackets was Aero’s former manager, he was caught red-handed with Aero’s patterns in his house, and he is currently in prison for his conduct.

As previously noted, you are free to believe whatever you want. On the other hand, you would be well served to temper your public accusations based on the evidence (or, in this case, the wholesale lack of evidence). Temporal proximity, while interesting, does not alone constitute proof of infringement. Himel has identified the precise vintage jacket that served as his inspiration. There is zero evidence that he based his design on anything but the identified vintage jacket.

Again, welcome to TFL. I look forward to your more productive posts going forward.

Superfluous said:

I genuinely had no idea. Rather, I equate “upstart” with “start-up” and did not intend anything pejorative.

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I thought that might be the case, which is why I raised it. It's an easy mistake to make; good to clarify.

Mmmm

Could someone post that large screenshot image a fourth time?

I'm still at a loss as to what the argument is here but I've no doubt seeing it a fourth time will clear it up

To me, this is all moot since the jacket in question has been around for what, 70 years? More?
Unless one of them has the rights to this jacket, then I say UNCLE!

Several photos of this exact vintage Grizzly jacket were posted on Rivet Head’s blog in 2011: http://www.rivet-head.com/2011/12/now-you-see-it-now-you-dont-1930s.html . Thus, as I previously observed, this jacket has been known by enthusiasts for years, and the photo has been in the public domain since at least 2011.

Himel and Rivet Head are friends, and read each other’s blogs. In fact, Rivet Head wrote about Himel on his blog in 2012: http://www.rivet-head.com/2012/02/inspiration-vol-3-x-himel-bros.html?spref=bl . Thereafter, Himel acknowledged Rivet Head's comments on his blog (thus confirming that he reads RH's blog): http://vintageleatherjackets.blogspot.com/2012/02/rivet-head-inspiration-vol-3-x-himel.html .

Based on the foregoing, Himel was plainly aware of this particular vintage Grizzly jacket going back to at least 2011 (and he certainly did not spontaneously discover the jacket in 2016, and produce a reproduction in a mere two weeks).

Ps: I would not be surprised if SJC saw the same jacket/photos on Rivet Head's blog back in 2011.

What I understood from Simon's comments he made the jacket per Rivet Head's request.

I hate lawyering and arguing when I have spare time. I do enough of that for living. Is there a way to put people on "ignore" here? Nice jackets, I like the SJC version better, small details. My price point would be about 100 dollars

tonypaj said:

I hate lawyering and arguing when I have spare time. I do enough of that for living. Is there a way to put people on "ignore" here? Nice jackets, I like the SJC version better, small details. My price point would be about 100 dollars

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Click on someone's name. Choose "ignore". Done.