Aero Leather Clothing trial update

^^^If you are referring to my post, I was agreeing with you.

HoosierDaddy said:

Oh please, it's called personal responsibility. Just because I may be going through some seriously tough times..doesn't mean that, therefore, it is, in any way, justifiable or even slightly acceptable that I resort to screwing over you or anyone else. Then slink off without any sign of regret.
HD

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^^^^^This ... means that both IXL and I concur with what you said in this post and your earlier post too. As I recall IXL is a law enforcement officer and has an appreciation of upholding the law.

HoosierDaddy said:

Oh please, it's called personal responsibility. Just because I may be going through some seriously tough times..doesn't mean that, therefore, it is, in any way, justifiable or even slightly acceptable that I resort to screwing over you or anyone else. Then slink off without any sign of regret.

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^^^ This

IXL said:

^^^If you are referring to my post, I was agreeing with you.

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I wasn't referring to your post IXL.
Just the idea that supporting the 'taking' of what belongs to several others somehow deserves some vindication due to certain personal circumstances.

Ouch. Didn't mean to derail the discussion entirely by bringing up Mark Moye. But I am interested to
hear all this. AFAIK, he hasn't been found and brought to court. It did take a year and a half to get my
jacket, but I did get perhaps the last one before he disappeared. He was always pleasant, but as far as
I could tell not entirely with the program, getting most of the details of my jacket wrong a couple of times.
Be nice if everyone who got ripped off would get something back some day, but I fear it won't happen.
Still, it would be interesting to hear the details of what really went down. Hope his kids are okay.

ButteMT61 said:

Life and people aren't that simple. When backed into a corner, one may be capable of strange things. That's not excusing anything or anyone, but it's just true that even good people can go wrong when ***t hits the fan. It's sad. For all involved.

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I have to disagree with you here, Butte. Good people don't go bad when the ***t hits the fan... facades crumble and true character is revealed. One's true character is revealed when one is under stress.

Well, if you've got a degree in psychiatry I'll accept that.
I've seen things happen to people that push them to the brink, and I won't sit here and judge because I don't know what caused it all.
I can be empathetic without excusing it. But I'm done with this subject. It's over and it's not my business.

I don't know anything about the US legal system, but did anyone press charges for fraud or deception against Moye ?

Sloan1874 said:

I'm afraid Joan wouldn't be very interested in you, Monitor, if you catch my drift...

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Monitor said:

I know, Sloan. I know... ;_;

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Well, I didn't know. I guess that knocks me out of the competition.

HoosierDaddy said:

Oh please, it's called personal responsibility. Just because I may be going through some seriously tough times..doesn't mean that, therefore, it is, in any way, justifiable or even slightly acceptable that I resort to screwing over you or anyone else. Then slink off without any sign of regret.
HD

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I'll try to reply without getting personal HD. We have three kids - great kids. Our oldest suffers from mental illness and when she got into her later teens, things really went downhill. The past 17 years or so have been a 180 from her childhood. In that time, she's been in trouble legally and done things that have almost destroyed her and our family. From the outside, all one would see is a nightmare and no doubt most would insist that she be locked up. She and her sister are not my bloodline, but I took on responsibility for them when I met my wife and they were little kids.
I've stood by her as long as I can - all but raising 2/3 of her children.

All I'm saying is that while the actions of someone like MM are reprehensible, I just don't know enough about the why to come here and destroy him further as I had no bad interactions with him. I saw what he did to others though, which is why I cut ties and never talked to this person who contacted me. Regardless of the reasons, he did many wrong and I wanted nothing to do with him going forward.

Even on our other forum (s&s), we bent over backwards to give space to the LD folks to make good with clients (me being one) that got screwed in hopes that some would eventually get their money and/or gear.

I'll "give you a break" as we don't like each other, so I thought I'd try to answer you as your post was directed at me/my reply.
Hope it helped.

ButteMT61 said:

I'll try to reply without getting personal HD. We have three kids - great kids. Our oldest suffers from mental illness and when she got into her later teens, things really went downhill. The past 17 years or so have been a 180 from her childhood. In that time, she's been in trouble legally and done things that have almost destroyed her and our family. From the outside, all one would see is a nightmare and no doubt most would insist that she be locked up. She and her sister are not my bloodline, but I took on responsibility for them when I met my wife and they were little kids.
I've stood by her as long as I can - all but raising 2/3 of her children.

All I'm saying is that while the actions of someone like MM are reprehensible, I just don't know enough about the why to come here and destroy him further as I had no bad interactions with him. I saw what he did to others though, which is why I cut ties and never talked to this person who contacted me. Regardless of the reasons, he did many wrong and I wanted nothing to do with him going forward.

Even on our other forum (s&s), we bent over backwards to give space to the LD folks to make good with clients (me being one) that got screwed in hopes that some would eventually get their money and/or gear.

I'll "give you a break" as we don't like each other, so I thought I'd try to answer you as your post was directed at me/my reply.
Hope it helped.

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Butte,

Please accept my genuine sympathy and empathy for what you have endured in relationship to your daughter. Unfortunately, I can relate, albeit from the opposite direction. Between the ages of 12 and 17, I was profoundly addicted to a variety of drugs – cocaine being the chief culprit – and my drug addiction caused me to engage in a long list of criminal pursuits that, among other things, resulted in multiple periods of confinement (the last confinement was for one year). I cannot begin to describe the torture that I inflicted upon my parents during my drug induced rampage.

Notwithstanding my own personal experiences (or perhaps because of them), I strongly believe that we all must accept personal responsibility for our actions. Many familiar with my story blame my parents for their disengagement when I was young and undeniably poor parenting during my formative years. Others blame the drugs for taking control of my life and actions. However, in the end, I – and I alone – was the one who turned to crime and victimized so many, and I had to own that. No one forced me to be a drug addict and criminal. I couldn’t blame my circumstances. I had to take personal responsibility for the wreckage of my past, and do my best to make amends. This personal responsibility/accountability, and associated amends, was essential to my recovery. Such personal responsibility/accountability is also a cornerstone of my life 33 years later. I recognize that your situation – your daughter’s mental illness in particular – is different, and I am not suggesting that the notion of personal responsibility applies to everyone in precisely the same manner.

Based on the foregoing, and as someone who previously engaged in criminal conduct and had to directly address the consequences of his conduct, I affirm that which I said earlier: Unless and until the perpetrators of the wrongdoing – Lauder, Moyes and others – own, take responsibility for, and make genuine amends for their undeniable wrongdoing, they do not deserve my empathy or mercy (just as I did not deserve empathy or mercy until I owned, and made amends for, my wrongdoing). Our lives and conduct are not dictated by our environment and circumstances beyond our control. Plenty of people confronted with far worse circumstances manage to handle their situations in a law abiding manner, without resorting to victimizing others, and so could Lauder, Moyes and the others addressed in this thread. They had a choice, and they made a choice. They choose crime, and now they must own, and live with, the consequences of their choice. Redemption is possible, but it requires one to make amends for their wrongdoing. Perhaps Lauder or Moyes will eventually stop denying and/or making excuses for their wrongdoing, and instead endeavor to make amends (I am not holding my breath).

To be clear, the foregoing is merely my opinion, based on my personal experiences and biases, and I am not suggesting, nor urging, that anyone else adopt a similar approach. To the contrary, those who are more tolerant and forgiving than I are to be commended. Therefore, I exalt Butte's tolerance and forgiveness, even though his approach differs from mine. He has a bigger heart than I. In the end, we all must strike a balance between personal responsibility/accountability and tolerance/forgiveness.

Both of those posts showed a great amount of honesty and humility. Which illustrates precisely why this forum, while composed of varied walks of life with a variety of differences/views, at the core the members here are good folk.

Thanks @Superfluous - I'm not sure my heart is "bigger" or I am just beat down from it all and see the failings we can all potentially fall into.
My daughter can't "help herself", but I do blame her for not getting proper help to deal with her issues, making things worse and ongoing. I'm truly not trying to give MM or WL any breaks, I just choose not to pile on any more as it's not fun.
I commend you for getting your life in order - lord knows I'd love to see such progress here with my daughter. I'm pretty judgmental and I'm only giving up on the hatred and anger for my own good - for the good of my other family members and wife. I've given up on hopes that my daughter will recover and improve.

You are absolutely correct - I've seen nothing from those guys that deserves any sympathy/empathy from anyone here. I just really want to make it clear it's my own choice not to continue the online beatings and I really hate what they both did.

You're a good man @ButteMT61

ButteMT61 said:

I'll try to reply without getting personal HD.

I'll "give you a break" as we don't like each other, so I thought I'd try to answer you as your post was directed at me/my reply.
Hope it helped.

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We don't like each other..?? I sure wasn't aware of that, Scott. I always thought that you were a great guy. Must be kinda one sided. Sorry to hear that.
My post was directed at the concept rather than precisely at only your post. Otherwise, I would have quoted your post with anticipation of a response.
What you and your family are going through surely is a complicated, disheartening, disturbing and often an unfair situation. I must say that I don't know how I would handle it.
HD

I thought that was a mis-type on Scott's part - you guys are the Statler and Waldorf of the jacket world - oh agony of iPhone predictive text.

iPhone. Don't get each other.
I just thought we were on a different page.
I can barely see on this old iPhone and o apologize HD.
This likely proves I should not try to post using it. I'm Sorry for that.

Sloan1874 said:

I thought that was a mis-type on Scott's part - you guys are the Statler and Waldorf of the jacket world - oh agony of iPhone predictive text.

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"More , more !!"". "Less, less!!" To quote my favourite heckle.

Yea, I didn't understand Butte's comment either. Glad he clarified. I thought I had missed a lot of something along the way.