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Limited Edition Himel Bros avail. at Orvis?

tblay

One of the Regulars
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167
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Bmore
I, too, found the comparison posts in poor taste, though I'm not sure I can articulate exactly why. It's something along the lines of what Monitor said above. For me, it comes down to the tone of a brand, which, for these really small makers, where they're doing their own representations on social media and such, often means the tone of the owner.

Throughout the ordering process, I found Himel to be kind of tone deaf, in terms of dealing with customers. He strikes me as a no BS kind of guy, which is all well and good, but it starts to come off as curt. I would send him an email and, a week later, he'd respond with these demanding messages , asking questions I'd answered in my previous correspondence. For instance, I selected options when ordering through his website, and then repeated those options in an email, saying something like, "For your convenience, here are the options again." A week or so later, I got an email to the likes of: "i really need you to tell me which options you want b/c i need to make this jacket ASAP before i complete other work!" The communication was always sparse, poorly written, and seemed to consistently suggest I was at fault for delaying the process when, one, I hadn't complained about the lead time at all, and two, I'd provided as much information as possible as early in the process as possible, sometimes twice. After all that, my jacket was made in the wrong hide the first time, and the options were: 1. Take this incorrect fulfillment of the order for a discount, 2. Wait for us to remake it.

Compare this process to, say, Langlitz, who made me a jacket based on measurements I wrote down on their standard order form. Once, they made a very, very small mistake, and when I pointed it out, their reply was: "We're so sorry. We will fix this immediately." And they were, and they did. I paid Himel twice as much, gave him the same measurements, but then he complained, and I use that word intentionally, that he also needed a fit jacket. So I had to pay to internationally ship him a fit jacket. Carrie of Thurston Bros. and Scott of Langlitz patiently answer so many questions and also keep track of a ton of data for each order. If Himel's stitch count is so great, and he is the pinnacle of jacket making, why can't he also make a custom jacket strictly from measurements? If he's the top choice for vintage repro leather jackets, why did I feel like such a bother to him throughout the ordering process?

In other words, as Monitor suggested, once you start aggressively comparing yourself to other well-known, well-liked makers, you invite all kinds of comparisons, some of which might not be so favorable. It is definitely not my intention to bash Himel here; I'm just trying to point out that, for me, this is a customer service thing, which stems from a tonal issue, which could easily be solved by hiring someone to manage external communications.
 
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Wasn't that long ago that BK was absolutely (and quite deservedly) blasted for social media comparisons, albeit his were much more egregious and rude. Either way, such a thing is a very slippery slope and seems to only further isolate an already small potential customer base.
 

Guppy

I'll Lock Up
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4,285
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Cleveland, OH
about leather and stitch count, I rather have lower stitch count and bigger thread.

the closer the holes to each other, making the leather weaker, and combined with thin strong thread in a tension it would be as sharp as cutting wire... it has a bigger potential to cut the panel on the seams like ticket/ coupon cutout line.

lower stitch count further apart from one to the next, and bigger thread which is obviously more round and blunt, is much safer to the leather.

I do ask for finer thread and smaller stitching when the stitching is around pocket's zipper, or along the hem etc, that wouldn't deal with a lot of weight and pull.
This is looking like a job for the Mythbusters to do some testing!
 

Superfluous

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why not compare it with the vintage jackets they're basing their designs on?

Current manufacturers are not competing against vintage makers. Rather, they are competing against other current manufacturers. Therefore, in order to demonstrate that their product is somehow superior to a relevant competitor's product, current manufacturers must compare their product to other current manufacturers.

That is not to say that comparisons to vintage products are not separately relevant, albeit for a different reason. Comparisons to vintage products will demonstrate the accuracy of the reproduction. However, it will not demonstrate the superiority of the product compared to other competing products.

this shouldn't be the kind of business where one maker should belittle another on such trivialities because it is exactly such conduct that fuels the elitist tendencies that are the trademark of a fashion industry

I concur that jacket manufacturers should not pejoratively belittle a competitor. On the other hand, jacket manufacturers should be allowed to compare and contrast their product to the products offered by their competitors. Such objective comparisons educate consumers. I thought Himel's side by side photographs were quite illustrative.

Your suggestion that Himel's comparison "fuels elitist tendencies" is predicated on your subjective belief that stitch count is "trivial." I disagree. Stitch count is, IMHO, a relevant consideration and a legitimate component of quality, and a comparison of stitch count is not "elitist." Of course, this is all subjective. We regularly dissect, compare and contrast the various hides used by different jacket manufacturers because we deem such information relevant and a legitimate component of quality. However, your typical mall shopper might find our discussions of hides "elitist" because, in his/her opinion, mall hides are adequate if not excellent.

The higher the quality of any product, the greater the likelihood that average consumers will deem the distinguishing elements of the product unnecessary, trivial and perhaps even elitist. The foregoing applies to almost any industry. We all make judgment calls about products and, in most instances, we elect to forego higher quality because we do not perceive sufficient value in the distinguishing features. That doesn't mean the products we forego are not incrementally better. It also does not mean someone who perceives value in the incremental features is elitist. Rather, with all products, there is a continuum and where each of us end up on that continuum is a subjective, personal decision that should not be disparaged or pejoratively characterized by others (e.g., "elitist").

...as for the stitch count, what Nave said. I've been told by a leather jacket tailor told me that a really high stitch count compromises the integrity of the leather as it gets overly perforated. It's like those sheets of paper with perforation lines you can separate from one another. And that the overly perforated leather can split just as easily as the seam can. Makes sense to me...

Respectfully, I do not believe that the cotton thread used by Himel is going to cut through the robust hides used by Himel. I think it is MUCH more likely that an overly long, exposed thread -- because of a lower stitch count -- will fail or be severed.

Comparisons to paper are inapposite (this comparison *might* have some relevance in the context of thin mall leather, but certainly not the hides used by Himel and other first rate jacket manufacturers).

Wasn't that long ago that BK was absolutely (and quite deservedly) blasted for social media comparisons, albeit his were much more egregious and rude. Either way, such a thing is a very slippery slope and seems to only further isolate an already small potential customer base.

I could not agree more. It is a VERY slippery slope. As you correctly observe, BK's statements were considerably more egregious. That said, Himel must be careful to maintain proper respect, professionalism and decorum so that he does not slide down the slope.
 
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tblay

One of the Regulars
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If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd also align with the Canuck. It's a little cleaner. But I enjoy both designs.
 
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I'll take 2 Aero's or 3 Vansons or a Johnson Leathers and a Simmons Bilt or any combination of the above. :p
But the Avro is nice.
 

Superfluous

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Kensington 4 lyfe.

Can't argue with that.

I'll take 2 Aero's or 3 Vansons or a Johnson Leathers and a Simmons Bilt or any combination of the above. :p

That is frequently the analysis when considering products that are exponentially more expensive than other competing products. Do I buy a Ferreri or two Porsches or three BMWs or four Corvettes or six Nissans, etc. Throw a Bugatti into the mix and the analysis gets even more distorted. The obvious response is "quality over quantity," but that legitimate principle only goes so far. In the end, your decision to buy two Aeros rather than one Himel is as correct as my decision to buy one Himel -- ain't it grand when both sides are equally right.

Of course, the same analysis applies equally in the reverse direction. Rather than buy one Vincenza Aero, you could purchase two Schotts or four US Wings or six mall jackets. Its a wide continuum of options.
 

Superfluous

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By the way, the Orvis Himel is only a couple hundred dollars more than a Vincenza Aero. Therefore, one cannot buy two Aeros with the same funds (maybe from the sale page).

Himel recently introduced a line of jackets in the $1,300- $1,600 range that are priced similar to Aero Vincenza jackets.
 

Boyo

Call Me a Cab
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the Orvis catalogue only lists "Italian Leather". Is it safe to guess that this is steer hide? Does he also use Vincenza?
 
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Can't argue with that.



That is frequently the analysis when considering products that are exponentially more expensive than other competing products. Do I buy a Ferreri or two Porsches or three BMWs or four Corvettes or six Nissans, etc. Throw a Bugatti into the mix and the analysis gets even more distorted. The obvious response is "quality over quantity," but that legitimate principle only goes so far. In the end, your decision to buy two Aeros rather than one Himel is as correct as my decision to buy one Himel -- ain't it grand when both sides are equally right.

Of course, the same analysis applies equally in the reverse direction. Rather than buy one Vincenza Aero, you could purchase two Schotts or four US Wings or six mall jackets. Its a wide continuum of options.
Once you crest a grand the commitment and loss is already taken firm hold. These jackets aren't holding very much resale value from the msrp. Aero's regularly sell for 1/2 the original price, even when relatively unworn, and that white Himmel has been relisted on eBay around ten times with no price adjustment and no sale... SB, you'll be lucky to get 1/3. So, if I buy 3 Aero's and change my mind or taste on one I'm taking a loss but still have options for different styles in the closet. If I put more eggs in a single basket and it goes south I'm left with much less wiggle room and the loss increases proportionally. Of course this is all subject to ones individual budget and acceptable margin for loss and change of heart. I guess for me, I've yet to see a Himmel that accounts for that leap, and this isn't a slam on the jackets. They are beautiful...I guess just knowing my behavior...it's not a wise investment for me. It's certainly to each his own.
 

willyto

One Too Many
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I've seen Himel Heron on Ebay for 800-900€ in Europe and they were just new and tried on. The resale value isn't that good, same happens even with Good Wear.
 
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17,133
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Chicago
I've seen Himel Heron on Ebay for 800-900€ in Europe and they were just new and tried on. The resale value isn't that good, same happens even with Good Wear.
Yeah I think all the makers we talk about here suffer from that. It's just that loss increases proportionally with a jacket that is proportionally more $$. I've got a tainted past with jackets.
 

Seb Lucas

I'll Lock Up
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7,562
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Australia
While I have access to $, increasingly I have a dislike of spending it. Even a new Aero is more than I want to pay. Lately I've taken to wearing $40 Dickies outerwear and they please me as much as any leather.
 
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While I have access to $, increasingly I have a dislike of spending it. Even a new Aero is more than I want to pay. Lately I've taken to wearing $40 Dickies outerwear and they please me as much as any leather.
I agree. And my JL is my last outerwear purchase for the foreseeable future.
 

Superfluous

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the Orvis catalogue only lists "Italian Leather". Is it safe to guess that this is steer hide? Does he also use Vincenza?

Its steer for this particular jacket. Dave made that clear on his IG.

Dave does offer Italian Horsehide -- I do not know whether it is the same, or different, from Vincenza HH. I think he buys his Italian HH from the Victoria tannery -- I don't think Vincenza comes from the Victoria tannery, but I am not sure -- Dave may also buy from other Italian tanneries. Either way, both are excellent hides.
 

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