Terms Which Have Disappeared

Upgrade · Jan 14, 2018

Sally Rand brings to mind another performer at the Golden Gate Exhibition, Noel Toy and her bubble dance.

She would later work for Charlie Low’s Forbidden City which was unusually an all-Asian nightclub during the Era. Rather than pander to Oriental Exocitism, they set out to prove that they were just as American as anyone else even if it did mean to title acts as, the Chinese Frank Sinatra, the Chinese Fred and Ginger, the Chinese Sophie Tucker etc. even if they weren’t actually Chinese. Of course, it was controversial for both communities. There’s a fascinating documentary and coffee table book called Forbidden USA with promotional literature showing that they were well aware of their unusual situation and their “slant” on life.

The nightclub would be the basis for Flower Drum Song.

There aren’t very many examples of Asians protrayed outside of stereotyped roles during the golden age of the American dream. I’m trying to recall if there’s more to fill in the gaps between Pat Suzuki, Bachelor Father, and Barney Miller.

tonyb · Jan 15, 2018

KILO NOVEMBER said:
Ah! TV memories from my early adolescence!

Shindig!
Hullabaloo

I recently learned (quite inadvertently) of a line of sewing fabric called "Hullabaloo." Got a pillow covered with a sham made of it. The cat uses it for a bed, when the dog doesn't push her off.

Zombie_61 · Jan 15, 2018

3fingers said:
I am not a nudist by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't particularly care if somebody else is.
I think shame and learned self consciousness are powerful things. Imparted from toddlerhood, they define our outlook until the end.
We have ingrained shame into people from birth and comparing ourselves to the "ideal" whatever that means is a national obsession. I used to work for the YMCA years ago. The little people all changed for swimming together, girls and boys alike. I noticed over the years that those kids tended to be more accepting of others than those who did not have the same experience. Not scientific by any means, but I found it interesting.

And that's my point. Small children aren't concerned about nudity--they can play together, swim together, bathe together, or whatever, with no concerns about whether or not they're dressed. It's only after adults brainwash them into believing it's wrong that they become self-conscious about it. Of course, puberty does factor into the equation at some point, but I think that's another discussion for another time and forum.

BlueTrain said:
I have never been sure that nudity and sex are ever separated, except, perhaps, for the "little people." That's not to say that sex is sinful or evil, only that to say that it's difficult to honestly admit that the two are unrelated, even in a clinical way...

There are clearly people who have difficulty separating the two. I think this is where context within a given situation comes into play. Being naked in a doctor's exam room, for example, might be titillating for some people, but I think most people would consider that to be a clinical situation in which a sexual encounter of any kind would be undesirable and completely inappropriate.

BlueTrain said:
...Some people have apparently not been taught about shame and consequently do shameful things.

First, I think you have to define "shame" and "shameful". Most people I know don't necessarily agree on where the line should be drawn between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" behavior. Even then, at times I think it goes back to context within a given situation, and that line gets moved one way or the other.

One of the best examples of this that I can think of is Janet Jackson's half-time performance with Justin Timberlake at Super Bowl 38 back in 2004, during which one of her breasts was intentionally (despite their initial denial) semi-exposed for approximately half a second. I'm far from being a prude, but even I thought that was inappropriate during a nationally televised sport event. If it had happened in a different setting--one of her music videos, during one of her concerts, a gathering of people in my living room, etc.--I wouldn't have cared one way or the other. But during the Super Bowl? Grow up Miss Jackson.

LizzieMaine · Jan 15, 2018

A lot of the American attiude about nudity was crystallized in the late 19th Century as a marker of social class. It was considered "common" to allow your little children to run around outside half-dressed -- which was a very common thing in working class city neighborhoods and in rural areas during the summer months. Little children might run around dressed in nothing but a longish cotton smock, or, possibly, nothing at all -- even as recently as my own childhood it was not uncommon to see toddlers romping in the yard "bollocky bare-arsed" as we called it -- but middle-class children would be encased and starched to the gills as a sign of their superior breeding.

This attitude carried over into adults as well, which led to the stereotype of the pale bourgeois couple promenading in the park while fully hatted, suited, coated, booted, and gloved, in the high summer, with only the skin of their faces exposed to view. "We are *well bred* people, unlike those of the lower orders who lounge about in vulgar rolled-up sleeves and unbuttoned shirtfronts, exposing their swarthy immigrant flesh to open view. Even though walking around like this in August causes us to reek with an unseemly slaughterhouse odor only barely concealed by a liberal dousing with violet water."

Inkstainedwretch · Jan 15, 2018

Fading Fast said:
Lizzie, was there a slice of the reverse occurring back then - men "on display" for women? Today there are some male strip clubs, but was there something similar going on back in the Era? There appears to always be some version of / venue for women "on display," seemingly no matter the time period.

Check out some stills from the pre-code "Tarzan and His Mate" (1934). Weismuller and O'Sullivan appear nearly nude (in one sequence fully nude) and nobody ever looked better in that mode.

tonyb · Jan 15, 2018

LizzieMaine said:
A lot of the American attiude about nudity was crystallized in the late 19th Century as a marker of social class. It was considered "common" to allow your little children to run around outside half-dressed -- which was a very common thing in working class city neighborhoods and in rural areas during the summer months. Little children might run around dressed in nothing but a longish cotton smock, or, possibly, nothing at all -- even as recently as my own childhood it was not uncommon to see toddlers romping in the yard "bollocky bare-arsed" as we called it -- but middle-class children would be encased and starched to the gills as a sign of their superior breeding.

This attitude carried over into adults as well, which led to the stereotype of the pale bourgeois couple promenading in the park while fully hatted, suited, coated, booted, and gloved, in the high summer, with only the skin of their faces exposed to view. "We are *well bred* people, unlike those of the lower orders who lounge about in vulgar rolled-up sleeves and unbuttoned shirtfronts, exposing their swarthy immigrant flesh to open view. Even though walking around like this in August causes us to reek with an unseemly slaughterhouse odor only barely concealed by a liberal dousing with violet water."

Hence the almost obsessive attitudes toward cleanliness and "proper" attire among certain lower-income people of my acquaintance.

The motive, I presume, is to give others one less reason to look down their noses.

"Make sure you're wearing clean underwear!" said the grownups before we kids headed out on our adventures. "If you end up in the hospital what will they think of your mother if I let you out if the house in dirty undies?"

It was a joke, of course, that a mother's greatest concern should her child be hospitalized would be what the staff might think of her laundering practices. A less jokey way of putting it was, "we may not be rich, but soap is cheap."

ChiTownScion · Jan 15, 2018

LizzieMaine said:
A lot of the American attiude about nudity was crystallized in the late 19th Century as a marker of social class. It was considered "common" to allow your little children to run around outside half-dressed -- which was a very common thing in working class city neighborhoods and in rural areas during the summer months. Little children might run around dressed in nothing but a longish cotton smock, or, possibly, nothing at all -- even as recently as my own childhood it was not uncommon to see toddlers romping in the yard "bollocky bare-arsed" as we called it -- but middle-class children would be encased and starched to the gills as a sign of their superior breeding.

This attitude carried over into adults as well, which led to the stereotype of the pale bourgeois couple promenading in the park while fully hatted, suited, coated, booted, and gloved, in the high summer, with only the skin of their faces exposed to view. "We are *well bred* people, unlike those of the lower orders who lounge about in vulgar rolled-up sleeves and unbuttoned shirtfronts, exposing their swarthy immigrant flesh to open view. Even though walking around like this in August causes us to reek with an unseemly slaughterhouse odor only barely concealed by a liberal dousing with violet water."

That brand of residual American Puritanism has played out to the nation's detriment in many incarnations. The Euros have a much healthier and adult attitude toward sexuality. Their kids are sophisticated as to contraception and as a result, far fewer of them are pregnant at age fifteen.

BlueTrain · Jan 15, 2018

Sometimes the "Euros" (I assume you mean Europeans and not the currency) are embarrassed in their liberal attitudes towards sex because it led to the development of a pornography industry there sooner than it did here. But if you've traveled in Europe, you will find that Europeans are just as modest as Americans for the most part.

On the subject of Asians in the movies before WWII, it is curious that two of the best known "oriental" detectives were not in fact Asian. Charlie Chan was never, I think, played by an Asian and neither was Mr. Moto, played by Peter Lorre. Mr. Moto was supposed to be Japanese and his character disappeared after 1940, although there was another movie 25 years later. Several actors played Charlie Chan. His wife and children were certainly all Chinese, though, if American born. From what I read, it didn't bother Chinese fans that Chan was not played by someone who was Chinese. They seemed to have been happy that a Chinese man could be the hero of the story.

Fading Fast · Jan 15, 2018

Inkstainedwretch said:
Check out some stills from the pre-code "Tarzan and His Mate" (1934). Weismuller and O'Sullivan appear nearly nude (in one sequence fully nude) and nobody ever looked better in that mode.

I have seen that scene many times over the years and, probably because I'm focused on Jane, I don't remember Tarzan being nearly nude in the sense that he is always nearly nude in those movies, but I don't remember his butt or penis being exposed in that scene. But again, he wasn't my focus, so maybe I've missed that.

As to O'Sullivan, I've read many times that she had a body double fill in for her in that scene. Regardless, in that scene, the woman is naked - front and back fully exposed - which, if my memory is correct about Tarzan not being naked, is another example of how it was more acceptable to have women naked than men even back then. If my memory is incorrect - then this would be a very rare example of full male nudity back in that time.

Also, I think that scene was one that led to the enforcement of the code later that year.

LizzieMaine · Jan 15, 2018

There were several topless bits in animated cartoons during the early 1930s -- one included a fleeting shot of Betty Boop's naked endowment, and another, a scene in a forgettable 1934 "Merrie Melodies" short called "Mr. And Mrs. Is The Name," featured a trio of harmony-singing mermaids who gave clear evidence that their species was mammary -- but for some reason lacked nipples.

Thirties cartoons are full of hidden sexual references -- once you start to notice them you can't not notice them, and they were purely intentional. Most of the animators were young single men in their twenties, with their minds on the sorts of things that young single men in their twenties tend to dwell on.

There's a story that when the Fleischer Studio moved to Florida in 1938, the crew produced a special reel for a private "Welcome to Miami" party in which Popeye and Betty Boop rather vigorously expanded each other's horizons. Max Fleischer supposedly kept this reel in his office safe and would screen it for special visitors to the studio, but it likely didn't survive the closing of the studio -- if it has, it hasn't resurfaced. One imagines that if they'd made it a few years later, Superman would have gotten in on the act.

BlueTrain · Jan 15, 2018

I have seen some early cartoon strips that included, if not featured, some topless women. These were presumably intended for the daily papers, too. In fact, topless women were not unheard of in older movies, too, both fictional and documentary short subjects. But, typically, just like in the National Geographic, they were invariably "native" girls and, apparently, that was okay.

Equally implausible, nude outdoor statuary adorns the parks, the bridges, the water fountains and even the cemeteries of our country, with varying degrees of additional modesty sometimes applied, in living color, too (either bronze green or dirty stone). This is true overseas, too. I guess everyone's used to it by now. It's usually either classical or Native American in nature.

Easily the most curious statue is one dedicated to the Boy Scouts and is located just south of the White House close to 15th Street. It's a little larger than life-size and depicts a Boy Scout in uniform of the 1950-1960s style leading an adult man and woman, both mostly nude in classical Greek style. I'm mentioned this before, too, because it's really odd. But then I discovered that the same sculptor also did the stature of the Mountaineer that stood and presumably still does, in front of the Mountainlair (student union building) where in went to school, West Virginia University. The Mountaineer statue depicts a gaunt-looking man in buckskins and holding a Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle.

I also think it's wonderful the way Blondie has retained her youthful figure.

LizzieMaine · Jan 15, 2018

As far as statuary goes, the New York World's Fair of '39-'40 had quite a few anatomically correct nude figures on display, including a series of frisking goblin-like things representing the spirit of Electricity or some such -- these little fellows were sufficiently detailed that you could tell at a glance that they weren't Jewish. Life magazine published a full-page spread of these statues, to only minimal comment from small-town pecksniffs.

There was also a 30-foot high plaster-of-paris figure of a brawny male nude representing "Freedom of Speech," who, despite his ample musculature, appeared to be suffering a bit from the cold winds whipping off Flushing Bay.

Fading Fast · Jan 15, 2018

LizzieMaine said:
...There was also a 30-foot high plaster-of-paris figure of a brawny male nude representing "Freedom of Speech," who, despite his ample musculature, appeared to be suffering a bit from the cold winds whipping off Flushing Bay.

If he was 30' high and if his, um, manhood had been sculpted to scale, that might have scared the horses.

Or, maybe, in a nod to the at-that-moment Nazi book-burning and blunting of free speech across the ocean, he was, shall we say, deflated in symbolic sympathy.

BlueTrain · Jan 15, 2018

Apparently, nude human figures have timeless and universal appeal. And unlike clothed representations, they never become dated.

Or do they?

tonyb · Jan 15, 2018

And who hasn't seen many a garden fountain featuring statues of little boys peeing into the pond?

LizzieMaine · Jan 15, 2018

"Art should be like it was in the olden days, before the weirdos took over."

1912.

Bushman · Jan 15, 2018

LizzieMaine said:
A lot of the American attiude about nudity was crystallized in the late 19th Century as a marker of social class. It was considered "common" to allow your little children to run around outside half-dressed -- which was a very common thing in working class city neighborhoods and in rural areas during the summer months. Little children might run around dressed in nothing but a longish cotton smock, or, possibly, nothing at all -- even as recently as my own childhood it was not uncommon to see toddlers romping in the yard "bollocky bare-arsed" as we called it -- but middle-class children would be encased and starched to the gills as a sign of their superior breeding.

This attitude carried over into adults as well, which led to the stereotype of the pale bourgeois couple promenading in the park while fully hatted, suited, coated, booted, and gloved, in the high summer, with only the skin of their faces exposed to view. "We are *well bred* people, unlike those of the lower orders who lounge about in vulgar rolled-up sleeves and unbuttoned shirtfronts, exposing their swarthy immigrant flesh to open view. Even though walking around like this in August causes us to reek with an unseemly slaughterhouse odor only barely concealed by a liberal dousing with violet water."

My mother, and her sisters were only second generation Italian immigrants, their mother being a young infant when her family came to America. That meant that they grew up in ways that would make the modern snobby suburbanite woman blush. And they passed that laissez faire attitude on nudity on to their kids. When we were toddlers, my cousins and I, both male and female, were accustomed to changing into bathing suits right there on the back porch, or even bathing together. My cousin, who I have more of a sisterly relationship with, and I bathed together for years. It was completely normal in our Italian descent homes. To our parents, whose clothes came from the local thrift shops, it just meant saving time and water. Nowadays, bathing two siblings of the opposite gender together is liable for a visit from DCFS.

tonyb said:
Hence the almost obsessive attitudes toward cleanliness and "proper" attire among certain lower-income people of my acquaintance.

The motive, I presume, is to give others one less reason to look down their noses.

"Make sure you're wearing clean underwear!" said the grownups before we kids headed out on our adventures. "If you end up in the hospital what will they think of your mother if I let you out if the house in dirty undies?"

It was a joke, of course, that a mother's greatest concern should her child be hospitalized would be what the staff might think of her laundering practices. A less jokey way of putting it was, "we may not be rich, but soap is cheap."

Our mothers used to tell us this too. Though with the way we played in the mud as children, the doctors might've wondered if we ever had clean underwear to begin with.

LizzieMaine said:
There's a story that when the Fleischer Studio moved to Florida in 1938, the crew produced a special reel for a private "Welcome to Miami" party in which Popeye and Betty Boop rather vigorously expanded each other's horizons. Max Fleischer supposedly kept this reel in his office safe and would screen it for special visitors to the studio, but it likely didn't survive the closing of the studio -- if it has, it hasn't resurfaced. One imagines that if they'd made it a few years later, Superman would have gotten in on the act.

Who knows, it may be buried in some Hollywood vault somewhere, the owners either unaware of its existence, or too prudish to admit that it's there. Might just show up someday like all those E.T. The Extra-terrestrial game cartridges found buried in the desert.

scottyrocks · Jan 15, 2018

LizzieMaine said:
"Art should be like it was in the olden days, before the weirdos took over."

1912.

Yep.

vitanola · Jan 15, 2018

LizzieMaine said:
"Art should be like it was in the olden days, before the weirdos took over."

1912.

I prefer Duchamp's sculpture.

Sincerely,

r. mutt. 1917

Upgrade · Jan 15, 2018

I recall a scene from The Great Train Robbery (aka the First Great Train Robbery aka the 1973 Sean Connery film based on the book by Michael “Jurassic Park” Crichton).

The director’s commentary mentioned how they had to make a PG-13 Victorian whorehouse with no topless scenes and replace the underage “lady of the night” with a more comical farce of the hero’s lady friend trying to get a key without following through on completing the “act”.

He also mentioned how the Victorians were interested in more fleshy encounters, comparing them to Jabba the Hut. Hence commenting that this was a more aerobic bordello.

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