Films and shows that COULD NEVER Be Made Today!

It doesn't get much better than the the black-and-white Fleischer Popeyes, even for modern audiences.
Each year I show "Lost 'n Foundry" to my Manufacturing Processes class of engineering seniors to illustrate industrial safety (or the lack thereof). They always laugh in the right places...
My brother (also an engineer) and I have a descriptive phrase for any machine that seems to have an excess of randomly-moving parts: "That thing has more parts than a Popeye factory..."

As for "A Dream Walking", I saw that at an independent theater in Boston back in the '70's. I think everyone but me was high on something and when Bluto, Popeye, and Olive merged together on the beams and then separated, the audience collectively went, "OOOOOH".

A year or so ago, a few member at FL turned me on to the Superman Fleischer cartoons of the early '40s. While the stories are, mainly, cookie-cutter - the illustrations / style are so incredible that you can watch them just for that (which I did and do).

Fading Fast said:

A year or so ago, a few member at FL turned me on to the Superman Fleischer cartoons of the early '40s. While the stories are, mainly, cookie-cutter - the illustrations / style are so incredible that you can watch them just for that (which I did and do).

Click to expand...

I love the visual style.

Bruce Timm's animated Batman series in the 1990s drew some inspiration from the Fleischer Superman cartoon shorts.

What's most remarkable about those cartoons is that they were made as the studio itself was disintegrating -- Max and Dave Fleischer weren't speaking to each other, the studio was collapsing under the weight of its debt, and Paramount had called its mortgage. That work of such quality could be made under such circumstances is real testimony to the people who did the work.

Fading Fast... That was me, of course. I'm the one who's been a huge cartoon buff - collecting them on Super 8 and 16mm film from long before home video - since the moment at around age 18 when my appreciation flipped from entertained kid to fascinated adult. For years, I haunted revival theaters and collector's living rooms to see and learn about them. I attended Leonard Maltin's first-of-its-kind course on cartoons at the New School. I gave a course of my own a few years later for the Learning Annex. I still blow people's minds showing my films when I throw parties.

(And NY-area Loungers, my offer stands to bring my cartoons and do a killer show at a get-together... if someone reasonably centrally located can provide a venue. I now live two hours north of the city, which is just too far to ask folks to travel.)

The very first cartoon in my Super 8 collection was the first Fleischer Superman. Nuff said.

LizzieMaine said:

What's most remarkable about those cartoons is that they were made as the studio itself was disintegrating -- Max and Dave Fleischer weren't speaking to each other, the studio was collapsing under the weight of its debt, and Paramount had called its mortgage. That work of such quality could be made under such circumstances is real testimony to the people who did the work.

Click to expand...

Agreed, but how many stories about artistic works of genius are also about the chaos, poverty, prejudices that the artist had to overcome when creating their, now, famous work: Hemingway writing in gloves in a freezing Paris loft 'cause he can't afford heat (might not even have had it in his very cheap flat) with not enough money for food, etc., is just another of many. The old expression "need breaks iron" requires only a slight tweaking to cover this phenomenon.

What's most interesting about the disintegration of Fleischer Studios was that Paramount put Seymour Knietel in charge after kicking the Fleischers out. Seymour was Max's son in law, and you can imagine how he must've felt to be stuck in that kind of situation. But somehow, the work kept going.

The story of the rise and fall of the House Of Fleischer would make a fascinating movie -- they were sort of the flip side of the feel-good Disney story.

LizzieMaine said:

What's most interesting about the disintegration of Fleischer Studios was that Paramount put Seymour Knietel in charge after kicking the Fleischers out. Seymour was Max's son in law, and you can imagine how he must've felt to be stuck in that kind of situation. But somehow, the work kept going.

The story of the Fleischers would make a fascinating movie -- they were sort of the flip side of the feel-good Disney story.

Click to expand...

And, if done right, it would be a perfect film for your theater. The way directors / producers / set stylists recreate the past, you know the movie would be beautiful. They have an awesome story (Greek-tragedy like) and a pop-cultural connect (Superman) - now we just need someone to make it.

It would have everything -- the socially-awkward egotistical paranoid genius, the frustrated and exploited little brother, sex scandals, labor violence, family strife, and Superman.

Max Fleischer wrote a psychologically-fascinating children's book in the mid-forties called "Noah's Shoes," in which he turned the story of Noah's Ark into a barely-camouflaged allegory of what happened to the studio.



Note the threatening motif of the Paramount mountain in the cover art. That's not coincidental.

Goodness! I thought I used to watch a lot of television. But, apparently, I missed a few years for one reason or another. But, television being what it is (everywhere), it's difficult not to be exposed to bits and pieces of programming now and then. I don't care if something could be made now or not. The question is, did I like it then?

I didn't like All in the Family. I never like programs with people shouting at one another and that one had its share. Otherwise, somewhat interesting. A little dated, too. Archie's factory job would have vanished decades ago. Everyone's attitude was completely understandable. Maybe that was the problem. It wasn't escapist enough.

There's no musical variety show on television these days, is there? Someone here doesn't like them. But I grew up on Dinah Shore, the Kraft Music Hall, and dare I say it, Lawrence Welk. But not Ed Sullivan. We didn't get that network. Later, there was Solid Gold, not to mention The Muppets, which was a sort of musical variety show, too.

I'm not so sure that such and such a show couldn't be done today. It might not be the same but that would always be unlikely, given that it would have a totally different set of actors, directors and writers. And just like Star Trek, it would have to compete with reruns of the original series. But you'll never know if they don't try.

You think an updated Gilligan's Island would work?

Other sorts of programming would be more problematic.

Lots of series movies, like Tarzan, Jungle Jim and Roy Rogers evolved almost seamlessly into television. Same actors, just a little older, same locations and sets and probably the same writers and directors. Just shorter programming times. Those and all the westerns into the 1960s and even into the 1970s with the likes of Kung Fu included a lot of outdoor scenes. A lot of the outdoor settings that had been used for decades for all kinds of outdoor location shooting began disappearing into expensive developments, although some studios had and still have "western streets" and jungle backlots that could be used. So I suppose the fads of programming made more of a difference. That and the fact that their audiences grew up. They could still drive up to Big Bear if they wanted, I guess, but no one would fall for "The Gold Diggers of 2018." I mean, not without a few script changes and, uh, maybe skimpier costumes. That always helps.

Think we could do another movie about hillbillies? First, invent a character, say, Eddie Hatfield. You could make a whole series of movies. "Eddie Hatfield in High School." "Eddie Hatfield in Afghanistan." "Eddie Hatfield in High Finance." "Eddie Hatfield in Las Vegas." Oh, I know, it's all be done before. Only the names will be different.

I take issue with the idea that The Beverley Hillbillies could not be made today. Unless it was because they couldn't make a show of such high quality.

Go watch a few episodes. They never belittled the Clampetts. They had their own ideas and their own moral code, and they usually came off better than their more sophisticated neighbors. The humor was in the contrast between the two cultures.

Being from a working class background I can watch The Beverley Hillbillies and enjoy them. But I can't stand newer shows like Joe Dirt or Dumb and Dumber that do nothing but sneer at anybody who doesn't have a university degree a $100,000 a year job and a BMW. Maybe I don't see the humor in kicking someone when they are down.

Stanley Doble said:

I take issue with the idea that The Beverley Hillbillies could not be made today. Unless it was because they couldn't make a show of such high quality.

Go watch a few episodes. They never belittled the Clampetts. They had their own ideas and their own moral code, and they usually came off better than their more sophisticated neighbors. The humor was in the contrast between the two cultures.

Being from a working class background I can watch The Beverley Hillbillies and enjoy them. But I can't stand newer shows like Joe Dirt or Dumb and Dumber that do nothing but sneer at anybody who doesn't have a university degree a $100,000 a year job and a BMW. Maybe I don't see the humor in kicking someone when they are down.

Click to expand...

I thought about making the same sort of comment when the "Beverly Hillbillies" was mentioned as a show that could not be made today. As a southerner I was always pleased that the Clampetts were portrayed as honest, caring, and quite civilized people despite their poor financial origins and lack of education. I can't think of any episode in which they mistreated anyone.
The "villains" were the arrogant city people such as Mrs. Drysdale and the various con-men and gold-diggers who tried to get the Clampett's money. Jed was anything but greedy and was as likely to try to give away some or all of his money than trying to get more.
However, the negative stereotypes of southerners continues without pause. In a recent episode of "Law and Order - SVU" the arrogant New York detectives had to go pick up a "perp" in West Virginia - the "rubes and yokels" insults were prevalent.
More recently, one of the doctor/hospital shows had a patient whose condition allowed the big-city doctors to make a speech about how backwards North Carolina was in the 1970's. Since that show is set in Chicago, I thought they surely had some more recent medical/patient issues to deal with.
A recent episode of the Simpson's had the VERY old stereotype of the southern sheriff with the usual sunglasses and shotgun guarding a chain-gang - right out of "Cool Hand Luke" (and others). In that same show the recurring southern character made an appearance, complete with missing teeth, stupid accent, shack, and multiple kids.

These examples were shown on network TV within the last 30 days, so negative southern stereotypes and shows containing those are being made all the time - right now.

Unfortunately, stereotypes are based on reality, but then the stereotype is applied to everyone. It takes no stretch of the imagination to picture good guys and bad guys everywhere, along with funny accents, unfamiliar foods and slightly different morals. Sometimes people from somewhere else take offense at any mention of anything different about them but often as not, they are please that you're interested in them. It's just hard to second guess how they're react. I come in contact with people from just about everywhere and usually find them interesting. There's so much to learn about them and where they're from. That includes several New Yorkers and they all seem to be happy to talk about what to them is home. And they can all turn on their accents at a moment's notice, too, same as me. I'm the one from West Virginia.

My daughter, who grew up in Northern Virginia and graduated university here (from a school named for her great-great-great-great [I forget how many] grandfather) and also lived overseas for three years. Well, now she lives in West Virginia and you should hear the things she has to say about the people there.

We were talking about movies, though. I mean films. There's a big difference in between could something be made and would something be made. They could do something and it might turn out to be a flop, too. That happened the first time around, too.

Maybe the biggest change is the audience. Supposedly, the low-budget westerns of the 30s and 40s went out of style because returning servicemen didn't like the simple plots or something. There never were that many singing cowboys, three or four at most. The so-called adult western came along in the 1950s. Serials disappeared, too, long about the same time. But had you been alive and going to the movies in the late 40s and the 1950s, you probably wouldn't have even noticed anything changing.

"Hillbillies" was very much a satire of the status-mad culture of the "Mad Men" era -- Paul Henning, the creator and head writer, was very emphatic about that. I think most people watching the show at the time understood that as well -- certainly when they saw Mr. Drysdale slavering over the latest comic book featuring his favorite superhero "Money Man," they weren't snickering at illiterate Ozarkians.

I loved that show, and still do, even though it got a bit tired toward the end of its run. It's hard for people today to understand just how popular it was in its heyday -- for many years, it stood within the top ten highest-rated television shows *ever.*

Likewise, "Green Acres," out of the same production stable, was overwhelmingly a parody of how city people view rural folk -- everyone knew the joke was really on Oliver Douglas, except Oliver Douglas himself. The only one of the Henning shows that might have been laughing at, instead of with, country people, was "Petticoat Junction," where lazy, shiftless Uncle Joe sat on the porch assiduously avoiding all constructive labor.

LizzieMaine said:

Likewise, "Green Acres," out of the same production stable, was overwhelmingly a parody of how city people view rural folk -- everyone knew the joke was really on Oliver Douglas, except Oliver Douglas himself. The only one of the Henning shows that might have been laughing at, instead of with, country people, was "Petticoat Junction," where lazy, shiftless Uncle Joe sat on the porch assiduously avoiding all constructive labor.

Click to expand...

Beverly Hillbillies and Green Acres were very much poking fun at city people, not the simple rural folks. They weren't meant to stereotype the country folks, but rather the other way around, and that is perhaps best demonstrated in Green Acres through one of the main jokes that is the character of Lisa Douglas. The show goes out of it's way to remind people that she was the one who didn't want to be there, yet she's ultimately the only one who embraces the change and is relatively happy and content, while Oliver is ever exasperated and miserable with that which he cannot mold into his own image.

These "what is normal?", fish out of water storylines are some of my favorites because it points out the sheer absurdity of so much cultural bias out there. IMHO, perhaps the best show ever with this theme, and perhaps the best written show of all time, was Northern Exposure.

I think the hillbilly gimmick, to put it one way, goes back a long ways in motion pictures. Personally, I don't find it any worse than a movie made about someone in The Bowery or anyplace (Anytown, U.S.A.). It was in the comics, too, in Li'l Abner. And remember the Plenty family in Dick Tracy? There was B.O. Plenty, Sparkle Plenty and Gravel Gertie. Boyhood heros to admire? Well, not exactly, but fondly remembered.

I don't think the hillbilly stereotype is quite dead but it isn't what it used to be. Remember, all of these things are based on reality and the reality is, the reality has changed. Oh, I know there might be poorly educated folks still living in ramshackle log houses that are 150 years old (I can give directions if you like) but time has moved on. The Dukes of Hazzard are probably closer to today than Li'l Abner ever was and that show has been off the air for over 30 years. Where does the time go? Of course, the Dukes weren't hillbillies, anyway. They were from Georgia.

Over the years, a few television shows managed to capture a little of the flavor of rural America and without either removing all the local color or denigrating any of the inhabitants (except for the bad guys, of course). But no matter where the story is set, such as Louisiana, all the exterior locations sure look a lot like California.

There was a bona fide "hillbilly" craze in the US during the 1930s -- the popularity of the National Barn Dance on radio fed it from one end, and the popularity, especially, of "Barney Google and Snuffy Smith" in the comics fed it on the other -- "Li'l Abner" was a direct response to the fad surrounding Snuffy and his "bodacious balls o' fire -- time's a wastin'" dialect.

Lum and Abner on radio slightly pre-dated the full-scale fad, but they didn't really become enduringly popular until after it had caught on. They lasted a good twenty years after that, and of course Snuffy Smith is still very much around, having changed not a bit from the same kind of chicken-stealing gags it did eighty years ago.

This can't pass without mention of Ma and Pa Kettle. Rural types, to be sure, but not everyone who lives outside is a hillbilly. A "country Jake," perhaps, but not a real hillbilly. I think other parts of the country have the equivalent of a hillbilly, from Swamp Yankee to whatever they call a Cajun living on the bayou.

There was a brief vogue in the early thirties, before the hillbilly craze, for "Down East Yankee" dialect comedy -- a radio serial called "The Stebbins Boys" featured Parker Fennelly, who played folksy old men his entire adult life, as a typical "ayuh, ya can't get theah from heah" type. He went on to play Titus Moody on the "Fred Allen Show," and was later best known as the Peppridge Farm man. And he even played Pa Kettle for a brief time as that series was ending its run, further blurring the difference between hillbilly and other types of rural comedy.

UOTE="EngProf, post: 2358187, member: 38066"]A recent episode of the Simpson's had the VERY old stereotype of the southern sheriff with the usual sunglasses and shotgun guarding a chain-gang - right out of "Cool Hand Luke" (and others). In that same show the recurring southern character made an appearance, complete with missing teeth, stupid accent, shack, and multiple kids.[/QUOTE]

You must be referring to Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel.


We had a German exchange student staying with us in 1998-1999, and as he was (1) an exchange student, (b) from Germany, and (c) a die hard fan of the Simpsons, I naturally nicknamed him (to his feigned outrage), "Uter." He would roar in mock protest, "Ach! That's a STEREOTYPE!!"

To which I'd reply, "A stereotype? On the Simpsons?? Oh, no! Never!"



The kicker, of course, is that in dubbed episodes shown in Germany, Uter is changed to an exchange student from Switzerland: a plump, chocolate gobbling kid in lederhosen nails their stereotype of the Swiss.

I've always maintained that those who are entitled to the greatest outrage over stereotypes on that show are those whose religious, racial, or ethnic group have never been lampooned. It's almost like saying, "Well, your people really are not important enough to poke fun at."