White RAF Roll Neck Sweaters

Ticklishchap said:

That's right: I have been wearing Woolly Pullies made to that MOD specification since the 1970s.

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We are enthusiasts of English sweaters. He isn't yielding to the doubt.
Here I have the curiosity: sweater who wasn't certainly done according to specification M.O.D.
It is a sweater of the diver from Russia.

Russian actor Dmitriy Orłow in the diving sweater in the action shot „The most important person” from 2005.

The Russian sweater has its tradition, not much confidently shorter than RN submariner. Russian divers certainly carried such sweaters already in years 20.. Perhaps earlier, in years and of world war and for the tsar, but I didn't come across photographs. It is necessary more to look for.
In the original version sweater (as well as underdrawers, socks, gloves and the hat or the balaclava) was made from 100% of camel hair. Above all divers applied it. However from what it was possible to read on Russian Internet forums he was also used (more or less according to the rules) by sailors of submarines, armies the USSR in Afghanistan, individuals of the mountain infantry and Russian pilots.
Whether is it a good sweater? It is hard for me to say, because I don't have and I didn't use. By it one from writing on the forum is finishing one's opinion on this sweater: „ The Sweater isn't worse than the ardent woman ”.

Link to one of Russian forums, where more photographs are (grow):
https://forum.ww2.ru/index.php?showtopic=4233110
Link to one of shops, where it is possible to watch the sweater:
https://zdrav-shop.tiu.ru/p226378940-sviter-vodolaznyj-tolstyj.html

On Russian forums they are paying attention, that camel's wool was never dyed, so real a natural camel should have the colour. In the management of the USSR substitutes of original materials have often been applied. So already then – now are also happening forged or edited – sweaters were being made of sheep's wool (and sometimes they were dyeing on beige). From descriptions and what I read in meat pastes it is possible to come across different versions: 100% wools, 90% wools and 10% viscoses, 80% slings. wools and 20% viscoses or cotton, until 50% wools and 50% of different yarn. The sweater is really heavy and he is weighing 1.5 kilogramme (c 3.5 lb). The most original it is possible to buy on „ flea markets ” (that is as RN submariner, in of surplus in smaller cities). And it then is probably cheapest. In online shops and on auctions prices fluctuate from 3800 roubles (c 47 pounds) behind very sweater for 8000 roubles (c 99 pounds) behind the full complement (sweater, underdrawers, socks, balaclava). Remarkable sweaters had reinforcements of seams with cotton tape and - but I cannot say it certainly – quadrangular patches at setting the collar in.

Too much I am writing. And most probably in little the tongue intelligible to the majority. Because kind of a bit in English, but with Polish building sentences, etc. So for a moment I will stop.

[QUOTE="Grandfather's Hat,.[/QUOTE]
I started being interested in a history of the Polish navy half of years 70. Since during the II world war small Polish Navy closely cooperated with large Royal Navy. In the end she found this RN oneself in the centre interests.[/QUOTE]

I remember that there was a small and very heroic Polish Navy - just as there was a Free Polish Army. Like you I have taken an interest in the Armed Forces since the 1970s. We have much in common.

Grandfather's Hat said:

I have jersey man ’ heavy in the navy colour from 1982. There was a martial law in Poland then, and Great Britain fought over the Falkland Islands. At us the boss of the Eastern European mafia died- I apologise: boss of the communist party - Leonid Brezhnev, and somewhere or other behind the Iron Curtain Remploy produced the next sweater. It is stimulating the imagination.[/QUOTE

Two things appealed to me from sea RN clothes: duffle coat and sub sweater. In duffle coat I walked from a child. In brown, dark blue, whether into blue-white grating. Coats had the different cut a little bit and they were called ”budrysówka ”. He is a close relative, because duffle coat is coming from the so-called “Polish coat”.

It was with sweaters worse, because so it wasn't. I had the time by hand done with so-called English stitch golf. Actually he had the colour very brightly blue. Today I think that he was similar to wolly pully roll neck (without patches) what OKW is doing.

But what my joy was, when – after several dozen years from it 1975, whether of 1976 - I bought for myself real sub Pick sweater.

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I wore a Naval Duffel Coat through my university years and young manhood (often over a Woolly Pully, Guernsey or sub sweater). Now I generally wear a Barbour Beaufort or a quilted Barbour jacket - but the sweaters remain the same.

Your talk of Duffel Coats makes me think of getting one again!

I looked through a lot of Royal Navy photographs in January from times of the II world war in order to watch sweaters. It is a pity that they aren't these are colour photographs. Of sweaters roll neck it is much. Omitting private sweaters of sailors – are also interesting – it is possible to .[/

Like you I concentrate on the sweaters when I look at Royal Navy photographs from that era and I note subtle differences in the colours and shapes. This matches my experience- I have owned a number of ecru sub sweaters over the years, some of which are lighter than others - and some of which have longer cuffs.

On the Woolly Pully, the turn-back cuffs are in my view a very fine feature.

Grandfather's Hat said:

We are enthusiasts of English sweaters. He isn't yielding to the doubt.
Here I have the curiosity: sweater who wasn't certainly done according to specification M.O.D.
It is a sweater of the diver from Russia.

Russian actor Dmitriy Orłow in the diving sweater in the action shot „The most important person” from 2005.

The Russian sweater has its tradition, not much confidently shorter than RN submariner. Russian divers certainly carried such sweaters already in years 20.. Perhaps earlier, in years and of world war and for the tsar, but I didn't come across photographs. It is necessary more to look for.
In the original version sweater (as well as underdrawers, socks, gloves and the hat or the balaclava) was made from 100% of camel hair. Above all divers applied it. However from what it was possible to read on Russian Internet forums he was also used (more or less according to the rules) by sailors of submarines, armies the USSR in Afghanistan, individuals of the mountain infantry and Russian pilots.
Whether is it a good sweater? It is hard for me to say, because I don't have and I didn't use. By it one from writing on the forum is finishing one's opinion on this sweater: „ The Sweater isn't worse than the ardent woman ”.

Link to one of Russian forums, where more photographs are (grow):
https://forum.ww2.ru/index.php?showtopic=4233110
Link to one of shops, where it is possible to watch the sweater:
https://zdrav-shop.tiu.ru/p226378940-sviter-vodolaznyj-tolstyj.html

On Russian forums they are paying attention, that camel's wool was never dyed, so real a natural camel should have the colour. In the management of the USSR substitutes of original materials have often been applied. So already then – now are also happening forged or edited – sweaters were being made of sheep's wool (and sometimes they were dyeing on beige). From descriptions and what I read in meat pastes it is possible to come across different versions: 100% wools, 90% wools and 10% viscoses, 80% slings. wools and 20% viscoses or cotton, until 50% wools and 50% of different yarn. The sweater is really heavy and he is weighing 1.5 kilogramme (c 3.5 lb). The most original it is possible to buy on „ flea markets ” (that is as RN submariner, in of surplus in smaller cities). And it then is probably cheapest. In online shops and on auctions prices fluctuate from 3800 roubles (c 47 pounds) behind very sweater for 8000 roubles (c 99 pounds) behind the full complement (sweater, underdrawers, socks, balaclava). Remarkable sweaters had reinforcements of seams with cotton tape and - but I cannot say it certainly – quadrangular patches at setting the collar in.

Too much I am writing. And most probably in little the tongue intelligible to the majority. Because kind of a bit in English, but with Polish building sentences, etc. So for a moment I will stop.

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Very interesting perspective on Russian sweaters. Thank you for that.
I am however glad that we are both aficionados of British military knitwear.

Hello,

I would like to establish, which companies produced Royal Navy jersey white or RAF roll neck for the British MoD. It is about contractual sweaters.
So far I managed to establish such producers:
H. Gilbey – years 40.
S. D. Stratton & Sons Ltd – years 50.
E. & W. Ltd. – years 50.,
J & S. Ltd.? – years 60.
H.K.Ltd – years 70.
Remploy – years 80.
J.Pick & Sons – years 70., 80., 90.
Kempton/Outdoor Knitwear – years 90.,
If somebody had sweaters of different producers – or exchanged, however produced in different years - politely I ask the producer for passing the brand, of year of the production (if is) and if necessary of number of the contract.
Thank you very much for the help.
I am greeting

Grandfather's Hat said:

Good afternoon. I apologise for such a late response.

The number of the SL 22 B/ 2226 contract is, the way wrote Paulgo 253 untypical and difficult to find. I don't also consider myself the specialist. However sometimes for myself I like to note something or to keep photographs in the form. A bit I will speculate.

It results from the NSN number passed by you that your sweater has size 1: NSN 8405 - 99 - 943 - 1534, it is size 1. 8405 - 99 - 943 - 1535, it is size 2. On the name tag in part concerning the wash probably isn't marked „ Hand Wash Only ”, only a given recipe for Machine and Handwash. I have taking the name tag of such a sweater, but the name tag my (SL 33c/417) has the identical graphics and the arrangement of the information. On my there is no year, however I have v-neck Pick in the navy colour number of the SL33c/470 contract with printed year 1990. And I have taking the name tag of olive JMH in order to Remploy SL33c/66 with date 1989. I can and so suppose from the year 1990 is mine.

Numbers of contracts of SL series (e.g. SL 31 from 1983 till 1990, whereas SL 34 from 1990 - 1994) consistently were applied by MoD for a year 1983 till 1994. Ordering SL 22 about the untypical numbering like e.g. could appear, as distinguishing the additional, supplementing order, e.g. during and the Gulf Wars. He can be this way, that your sweater was ordered and produced between the autumn of 1990 and the date of closing the factory J.Pick &Sons. But whether he is that's true?

As similarly as from SL 22 B, with difficulty he is to determine – for at least me - dates of the production Jersey Man’ Heavy Round Neck from the ST2b/3877 contract. They were these are sweaters in the colour blue grey, navy and olive.

For every for me these name tags? I like history. I have jersey man ’ heavy in the navy colour from 1982. There was a martial law in Poland then, and Great Britain fought over the Falkland Islands. At us the boss of the Eastern European mafia died- I apologise: boss of the communist party - Leonid Brezhnev, and somewhere or other behind the Iron Curtain Remploy produced the next sweater. It is stimulating the imagination.

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I enjoy reading these reports, you have certainly done alot of reseach. I saw a man yesterday at my railway station wearing a white submariner sweater and he looked very smart in it.

STEVIEBOY1 said:

I enjoy reading these reports, you have certainly done alot of reseach. I saw a man yesterday at my railway station wearing a white submariner sweater and he looked very smart in it.

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Because intelligent people like wool sweaters.

On name tags I learnt looking at contracts numbers and NSN numbers on British Internet forums enthusiasts of the uniform. Copies appeared e.g. of jackets smock, whether ventile deck jacket. It is worthwhile knowing, which object is real, and who not. Are they forging sweaters? Rather not. But sometimes on Ebay they are selling sweaters who in the description are suggesting something else, than one can see in a photo. Or it is possible to read in the label.
Specially I am not searching. I am trying however systematically to take down, what I will see.

But I am not a policeman, or an undercover agent.

Exactly very pretty Pick sub sweater turned up to Ebay.
From the contract number I suppose it is generation 1978 (rather) or 1979.
For watching under the link:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...477728?hash=item1ca1504960:g:DzEAAOSwXkNagtC1

They took out for the bidding for 55 pounds. It is interesting for how much will be sold?
I don't know, whether you could see, but in December 2017 vintage RN roll neck the jumper was won an auction for 206 pounds. It is here:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Really I don't have the commission around ebay.

STEVIEBOY1 said:

I enjoy reading these reports, you have certainly done alot of reseach. I saw a man yesterday at my railway station wearing a white submariner sweater and he looked very smart in it.

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And they are not just for the boys. My girlfriend (5'11" +/- 130 lbs) liked mine so much, we grabbed one of the Guideboat ones in small for her. It's a touch big, but in a good way and looks great on her. She's already worn hers more than I've worn my.

Fading Fast said:

And they are not just for the boys. My girlfriend (5'11" +/- 130 lbs) liked mine so much, we grabbed one of the Guideboat ones in small for her. It's a touch big, but in a good way and looks great on her. She's already worn hers more than I've worn my.

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There was some 1980s sitcom here in the UK about a married couple (man and woman) who wore matching sweaters: in this case Fair Isles, I think. The man was (word of the day) uxorious and the wife 'wore the trousers' as we say over here although she was a bit wet behind the ears and into recycling etc. (Did we recycle in the '80s or is my memory playing tricks?). I can't remember the name of the sitcom or the names of the characters: Tweedledum and Tweedledeena will do for now.

Ticklishchap said:

There was some 1980s sitcom here in the UK about a married couple (man and woman) who wore matching sweaters: in this case Fair Isles, I think. The man was (word of the day) uxorious and the wife 'wore the trousers' as we say over here although she was a bit wet behind the ears and into recycling etc. (Did we recycle in the '80s or is my memory playing tricks?). I can't remember the name of the sitcom or the names of the characters: Tweedledum and Tweedledeena will do for now.

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I will put a gun to my head and pull the trigger before we go out in matching sweaters.

We have a few items that we both own the exact same version of and, not that it takes much effort, we make sure we never wear them on the same day.

The American expression is she's the one who "wears the pants in the family," basically the same, but you guys use the fancier word.

Fading Fast said:

I will put a gun to my head and pull the trigger before we go out in matching sweaters.

We have a few items that we both own the exact same version of and, not that it takes much effort, we make sure we never wear them on the same day.

The American expression is she's the one who "wears the pants in the family," basically the same, but you guys use the fancier word.

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Agreed: you don't want to seem uxorious.
I wish I could remember the name of that sitcom or the names of that nightmare couple. I just remember that they both had wet little voices but she ordered him around. The Fair Isles were not genuine but what we call 'High Street fashion' - the equivalent of your Main Street.

Pants (US) versus Trousers (UK): you Americans are closer to the French pantalon. There were also 'pantaloons' at one time. As is often the case, you use older words that have died out in the UK. Nobody here says 'gotten', for instance. I remember a really nice cab driver on my visit Washington, DC, an African-American whose speech sounded like English from centuries ago. He came from a rural part of Virginia it turned out. In NYC in the late 80s (the Basquiat era) I took a lot of cabs and the drivers were mostly Haitian Kreyòl speakers.

Ticklishchap said:

There was some 1980s sitcom here in the UK about a married couple (man and woman) who wore matching sweaters: in this case Fair Isles, I think. The man was (word of the day) uxorious and the wife 'wore the trousers' as we say over here although she was a bit wet behind the ears and into recycling etc. (Did we recycle in the '80s or is my memory playing tricks?). I can't remember the name of the sitcom or the names of the characters: Tweedledum and Tweedledeena will do for now.

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The couple were called Howard and Hilda.
The program was called - Ever Decreasing Circles

Persimmon said:

The couple were called Howard and Hilda.
The program was called - Ever Decreasing Circles

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Thank you for that! G-d they were awful. ...

Ticklishchap said:

Thank you for that! G-d they were awful. ...

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Was that the one with Richard Briars in it, following the sucess of the Good Life programmes he did in the 1970s?

STEVIEBOY1 said:

Was that the one with Richard Briars in it, following the sucess of the Good Life programmes he did in the 1970s?

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At the time of The Good Life my best friend at school had a mother who was a dead ringer for Margo (Penelope Keith's character). His name was Geoff but she always called him 'Geoff-Reee!'. She was also Anglo-Catholic and addicted to Valium.

STEVIEBOY1 said:

Was that the one with Richard Briars in it, following the sucess of the Good Life programmes he did in the 1970s?

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Yes indeed

This horrid blast of severe cold weather that we have in the UK at the moment, has meant at least, that I am getting good use out of my SubMariner Roll necks at the moment, along with other heavy sweaters. Yesterday I was wearing the Off White/Ecru Sub from Pick & Sons, today I am a navy Sub and tomorrow I shall prob wear the other Off White Sub from Silvermans. Stay warm everybody.

STEVIEBOY1 said:

This horrid blast of severe cold weather that we have in the UK at the moment, has meant at least, that I am getting good use out of my SubMariner Roll necks at the moment, along with other heavy sweaters. Yesterday I was wearing the Off White/Ecru Sub from Pick & Sons, today I am a navy Sub and tomorrow I shall prob wear the other Off White Sub from Silvermans. Stay warm everybody.

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Not horrid at all - I'm loving it. Have also been wearing my sub sweater and Navy Guernsey, but am in my Navy roll neck Woolly Pully today!