Burned on Ebay

Mich486 · Feb 25, 2018

Technonut said:
How so? As I posted, it's eBay's rules, not mine. I'm certainly not disclosing things that most members there are not already aware of. I have been burned before by false claims made by buyers when I was the seller over the past 18 years as a member there, and dodgy sellers who actually did NOT describe the items well in their listing. Personally, I wouldn't lose any sleep if eBay would bar it's online doors tomorrow...

Well then how when listing - as a private seller - I have the option to “accept no returns” which is clearly stated in the listing postage section as well (I don’t mean in the description there you can write what you want)? See below one of my listings:

If instead you are buying from a business seller then things are different and they probably must accept returns depending on the law of each country.

I’m flabbergasted that ebay took on your side though if you bought from a private.

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Technonut · Feb 25, 2018

Mich486 said:
Well then how when listing - as a private seller - I have the option to “accept no returns” which is clearly stated in the listing postage section as well (I don’t mean in the description there you can write what you want)? See below one of my listings:

If instead you are buying from a business seller then things are different and they probably must accept returns depending on the law of each country.

I’m flabbergasted that ebay took on your side though if you bought from a private.

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It could very well be different in the UK... In my case, the mentioned seller did NOT accept returns, and was confused by the fact that eBay allowed the return / return label without their approval.. Here's what little I had time to dig-up mentioning eBay UK rules:

https://www.auctionnudge.com/guides/understanding-returns-and-ebays-money-back-guarantee/

Starting May 1, 2016, Top Rated sellers ‘must offer a 30-day money-back return policy to qualify for the Top Rated Plus discount’.

Sellers receive a credit for an item’s final value fee if they resolve a MBG issue (not received/not as described) without the involvement of eBay.

Since February 2016, return requests that are successfully resolved do not impact a seller’s defect rate.

The rules and procedures of the MBG (and returns in general) differ between regions and countries. In the UK for example, eBay requests buyers to send the item back to the seller within 14 days for an ‘item not as described’ return request. All of the information above relates to eBay.com.

Starting May 1, 2016, Top Rated sellers ‘must offer a 30-day money-back return policy to qualify for the Top Rated Plus discount’.

Sellers receive a credit for an item’s final value fee if they resolve a MBG issue (not received/not as described) without the involvement of eBay.

Since February 2016, return requests that are successfully resolved do not impact a seller’s defect rate.

EDIT: I did NOT need to directly involve eBay customer service.. I just hit the 'Return Item" button, and was granted the return, and option to pay for a label. It didn't matter that I chose 'Changed My Mind" as a reason..

EDIT: Also, I had a damn good reason to change my mind regarding that particular item / transaction..

ProteinNerd · Feb 25, 2018

If I were selling this jacket, I'd feel obliged to state there were ripped seams and missing stitches in the description...IMO to not do so boarders on being deceitful.

If I had bought it, I'd be flagging it with ebay.

l0fielectronic · Feb 25, 2018

Mich486 said:
I suppose not because you can clearly select “no returns accepted” as a private seller.

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Yes, as a private seller I've had three occasions where eBay has 'forced' returns. The 'No returns accepted' listing choice is basically meaningless.

I imagine they think its the simplest solution so the seller can sell again and the 'buyer' is happy with things.

It is annoying and a time waste, when you've listed things correctly. In two of the sales I had it was because the item, a jacket actually, didn't fit. No other issue. In another the buyer deliberately damaged a new jacket in order to say it wasn't as described, which was very much more annoying. That said I've sold a lot of things over the years with no issue and have had messages from buyers saying how happy they are with what they've bought. No system is perfect I suppose.

Nobody can really judge the situation here without seeing the jacket compared to the listing. I guess it will go down to eBay. If I were the seller in this case I would certainly let them know the buyer had posted here that the jacket didn't fit as it does add a dimension to things that wasn't mentioned in the OPs first post. Hope it works out for the two of you anyway, sounds like if anyone does want this jacket at the price they could send either the buyer or seller a message through here and save everyone some hassle on eBay.

Mich486 · Feb 25, 2018

l0fielectronic said:
Yes, as a private seller I've had three occasions where eBay has 'forced' returns. The 'No returns accepted' listing choice is basically meaningless.

I imagine they think its the simplest solution so the seller can sell again and the 'buyer' is happy with things.

It is annoying and a time waste, when you've listed things correctly. In two of the sales I had it was because the item, a jacket actually, didn't fit. No other issue. In another the buyer deliberately damaged a new jacket in order to say it wasn't as described, which was very much more annoying.

Ok but it seems then that your buyers made up a bogus claim that there was an issue with your items, that in the eyes of ebay is valid reason to return even if it’s made up.

What technonut was saying is that the only reason he put forward is a “change of mind”. He didn’t even have to make up an excuse. I find this very very strange if no returns accepted was stated in the postage section.

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Seb Lucas · Feb 25, 2018

The eBay policy is one thing, how it feels to buy something that doesn't meet your expectations and has undisclosed problems is another. I think the missing stitching issue is significant and probably should have been highlighted in the same way the torn collar lining was. If I were selling this, I would have a close up shot of the stitching issue, etc to highlight this potential deal breaking issue.

Mich486 · Feb 25, 2018

The ebay policy discussion was not strictly connected to the original post.

Said that I think you might very well revise your expectations if you paid a fifth of what the item is selling when new.

A few missing stitches I think it can be regarded as fair wear and tear for a well worn jacket as stated. But then.... it also doesn’t fit...

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l0fielectronic · Feb 25, 2018

Seb Lucas said:
I think the missing stitching issue is significant and probably should have been highlighted in the same way the torn collar lining was. If I were selling this, I would have a close up shot of the stitching issue, etc to highlight this potential deal breaking issue.

Yes, If its as the buyer describes then I would cetrainly agree with that.

Monitor · Feb 25, 2018

There's also a problem that what you might not even recognize as an issue turns out to be another persons deal-breaker. What people nowadays tend to forget is that when you're buying a used leather jacket, a used leather jacket is what you're getting. If the listing states that the jacket's been well used, expect the worst, hope for the best. Or just don't freaking buy it! You know you're taking a chance so be prepared to deal with the outcome.

Big J · Feb 25, 2018

Last year I bought a 1968 G-1 from eBay for 50 bucks.
The pictures were grainy and out of focus, there were visible signs of abrasion to the leather with large areas of top coat worn off.
The knits were ragged.

The seller didn't list any meaningful information nor answer enquiries.

I bought it. And I'm glad I did. Awesome jacket with tons of character. I would never have paid more for a nice jacket, and treated it so badly that it looked that cool with character.

Ebay is like gambling. You win some, you lose some. Don't like losing? Keep your stake low I guess.

The jacket in the OP sounds like it's got loads of character for a fraction of the price! Why the frown?

Monitor · Feb 25, 2018

^ Yep.^

People also forget they're buying on eBay because they don't have enough money to buy a new leather jacket. But you can't (always) end up with a brand new jacket for the price of a used one. It's a flea market and flea market is always a gamble where granted, you can sometimes find great stuff and great deals but please, people, don't forget it's still a flea market.

Desperandum · Feb 25, 2018

I've had some real A-2 and B-3 buying successes on eBay, but also a couple of failures, which I've just "sucked up", as I didn't think the sellers were acting in bad faith, or because I thought they just didn't know enough about what they were selling and what the USPs and downsides of the item were for buyers. As with any of these things, there's a calculated risk in buying based on photos and descriptions, especially from people who aren't normally in the flight jacket selling world.

I have sold only two A-2s on eBay over the years, neither of which were in especially good order or without faults and deficiencies. However, when preparing the eBay listings over a period of days, I made a long list of everything I would or could take issue with if I were bidding for the jacket and won it. Each of these was illustrated by a quality photograph. Although it's not the approved method of salesmanship, I put the "Cons" of the jacket right at the start of the listing, where people would read them first, rather than at the end. I also didn't give what I might consider "Pros", or kept them seriously understated (no "spectacular condition" and suchlike). Both achieved reasonable prices with no comebacks, and what was paid left what I thought to be sufficient margins for the buyers to be able to have done any repair work they chose.

Flightengineer · Feb 25, 2018

Polterer said:
I've had some real A-2 and B-3 buying successes on eBay, but also a couple of failures, which I've just "sucked up", as I didn't think the sellers were acting in bad faith, or because I thought they just didn't know enough about what they were selling and what the USPs and downsides of the item were for buyers. As with any of these things, there's a calculated risk in buying based on photos and descriptions, especially from people who aren't normally in the flight jacket selling world.

I have sold only two A-2s on eBay over the years, neither of which were in especially good order or without faults and deficiencies. However, when preparing the eBay listings over a period of days, I made a long list of everything I would or could take issue with if I were bidding for the jacket and won it. Each of these was illustrated by a quality photograph. Although it's not the approved method of salesmanship, I put the "Cons" of the jacket right at the start of the listing, where people would read them first, rather than at the end. I also didn't give what I might consider "Pros", or kept them seriously understated (no "spectacular condition" and suchlike). Both achieved reasonable prices with no comebacks, and what was paid left what I thought to be sufficient margins for the buyers to be able to have done any repair work they chose.

You have acted honestly. I will gladly shake your hand. Therefore there was no return.
I believe that every of us who sell, should describe the item as if he himself put himself in the place of the buyer and then there will be no such misunderstanding and problems. Yes, it sounds trite. It is clear that the purchase old jacket from eBay is a lottery and rullet. Unfortunately, sometimes sellers "forget to indicate" the shortcomings ... However, there are also strange buyers.

Sloan1874 · Feb 25, 2018

I would not feel comfortable listing a jacket without mentioning something as significant as missing stitches etc, as it speaks to a greater amount of wear and tear than the description suggests.
I'm sure the fit might be an issue, but if that was purely the case, then it would easy to flip the jacket. Unfortunately, if he's going to do that, then the OP has the unpleasant choice of being honest about its real condition and taking a hit on the money that he had spent in good faith, or being as opaque about the jacket as the previous seller and then potentially face an eBay case against him.

My biggest bugbear are sellers who don't disclose that they're smokers and the items they are selling are infested with tobacco. My other half bought a Mary Quant leather jacket that arrived stinking of ancient cigarettes and talc - the seller had obviously doused it in something that she thought, wrongly, would cover the smell (reinforcing the oft-repeated fact that cigarettes destroy your sense of smell). It took more than a month to get the smell down to a dull roar - weeks hanging in the garage, sealed in a box with bicarb, repeated coats of Pecards, odour removing sprays etc - and even now, several years on, it still has a residual smell.
If I remember correctly, the seller apologised, said she didn't think it was that bad (again, sense of smell blunted by years of smoking) and offered a partial refund. Since then, I've been a lot tougher on this sort of thing: if it arrives stinking of smoke and can't be washed/cleaned easily, it goes back.

Flightengineer · Feb 25, 2018

Yes, the smell of cigarettes is a terrible thing. I managed to win it by cleaning in two cases, but in one - even professional cleaning did not help. I agree that the seller must specify this if there is a smell.

slightseconds · Feb 25, 2018

Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. As Sloan said, my concern is that if I resell the jacket I won't get my money back because I will be honest about the stitching problems. As you can see from the pics they are not just aesthetic. The stitching issues were not mentioned in the description and were not obvious from the photographs unless you were looking specifically for stitching issues.

Some people have said that Ebay is a lottery, some you win some you lose. Well, if everyone took the trouble to describe their items for sale accurately it would be a lot less of a lottery and everyone would be happier. I don't go on ebay to gamble, I go there to make a mutually beneficial transaction with somebody and that depends on trust.

I've attached a photo of the Made in UK label. To my knowledge Real McCoy's jackets have never been manufactured in the UK. Does anybody know different? If not then the £380 I paid for a fake jacket starts to look a lot less of what some have called a bargain.

TREEMAN · Feb 25, 2018

Wow !! Now getting a better look at that stitching...it should have been mentioned in the description.

Monitor · Feb 25, 2018

Sloan1874 said:
Since then, I've been a lot tougher on this sort of thing: if it arrives stinking of smoke and can't be washed/cleaned easily, it goes back.

I mean, of course if the jacket doesn't absolutely reek of smoke or mold or something but in this case someone's sense of smell indeed may not pick up what someone else might and not mentioning a relatively mild smell is not an offense that ought to warrant a return/refund. I barely have any sense of smell at all so I genuinely wouldn't know if any of my jackets stinks (though they don't) but on the other hand, if it's listed as used/worn and clearly stated so in the description I would expect the buyer to understand that the jacket might not check absolutely every box on their wish list.

Aero's CXL, for instance; some people find the smell intoxicating, others can't be in the same room with the jacket. Should Aero state on their site that all their CXL jackets have a very strong, unspecified odor?

Smell is too subjective.

And another thing is, many people buy used leather jackets on the account that it's already been "broken in", which in fact means that in their mind, they're buying a "new" leather jacket that's exactly as they imagined it, so when the seller to whom "broken in" doesn't mean anything other than worn, lists most of the major flaws they could find, buyer ends up surprised and disappointed when their jacket arrives not as they figured it'd look like. They'll quickly dismiss a good deal and other benefits they got and think of it as being "not as described" - the description of course depending entirely on what's within the realm of buyers imagination.
For instance, creased sleeves and colour fading is cool but missing stitches here and there isn't.

Another persons expectations is not what the seller should consider (as long as they've honestly described the jacket) and it's really not fair to force them to accept a return and a refund just because their one persons vision of an used leather jacket doesn't reflect anothers.

Cooper A-2 · Feb 25, 2018

slightseconds said:
View attachment 108156 View attachment 108157 View attachment 108158 View attachment 108160

Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. As Sloan said, my concern is that if I resell the jacket I won't get my money back because I will be honest about the stitching problems. As you can see from the pics they are not just aesthetic. The stitching issues were not mentioned in the description and were not obvious from the photographs unless you were looking specifically for stitching issues.

Some people have said that Ebay is a lottery, some you win some you lose. Well, if everyone took the trouble to describe their items for sale accurately it would be a lot less of a lottery and everyone would be happier. I don't go on ebay to gamble, I go there to make a mutually beneficial transaction with somebody and that depends on trust.

I've attached a photo of the Made in UK label. To my knowledge Real McCoy's jackets have never been manufactured in the UK. Does anybody know different? If not then the £380 I paid for a fake jacket starts to look a lot less of what some have called a bargain.

Apologies if I chime in here.This is no way a RMC jacket even if one label says so.
Looks like an early Ralph Lauren “ hand customized ” jacket.
Check here the RLL A-2 construction and compare...
(google....ralph lauren A-2 jacket)
This would also explain the open stiches...remove the outer pocket leather to better fit in other labels...(pe where the RMC label needs to be stiched in and other labels removed)
IMHO never a RMC A-2

slightseconds · Feb 25, 2018

Just to say I contacted Real McCoy's earlier today and asked if A2 jackets have ever been made in the UK. They replied:

The Real McCoy's have only ever made leather jackets in Japan.

So why does the jacket I received have the above photographed made in UK label?

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