Decade that was the peak of hat quality?

Frunobulax · Jun 9, 2018

MondoFW said:
I've heard of this practice. Surely wearing a hat from this era, even if it was processed with mercury, would be totally safe to wear? I'm interested in getting my hands on a hat earlier than what I'm familiar with. Why did we use mercury anyway?

Of course it's safe. The mercury was used in a pickling process during the making of the felt. It's not part of the composition of the felt.

Somewhere on the interweb, you can find a book called "Scientific Hat Making." I can't remember if it gets into the felting process or not, but may give some insight. I can't speak off the top of my head about the chemistry of the pickling, how it aide carating (sp?), or any of that, however.

Sent directly from my mind to yours.

Dnewma04 · Jun 9, 2018

I have an Esther Weiss hat. I’d vote for 2010s as the best decade.

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splintercellsz · Jun 10, 2018

Anything pre-60s is spectacular, and the older, the better (for me anyhow)

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AbbaDatDeHat · Jun 10, 2018

Hey Mondo:
Tough question to answer. So much subjectivity involved with so many different brands and then the different quality distinctions within each. Myriad of opinions.
For me, i don’t think you can beat the mid 40s to 50s across the board no matter the brand. IMHO. I love the 40’s stuff. It gets much harder to tell older than that unless in exceptional condition. My 2cents
Be well. Bowen

moontheloon · Jun 10, 2018

hat making in the US has nothing to do with hats made elsewhere

hats made in the US pretty much went to $#!t right around the early to mid 50s ... as where something like Borsalino made in Italy stayed high quality for decades after that

quality as far as felt , leather and construction ...from the hundreds of US manufactured hats that I have handled ... early to mid 40s and earlier is where the quality that will make you shed a tear stands

I've never handled anything earlier than probably teens ... so I can only go by what I have handled ... teens through the 30s were nothing but absolute works of art

by the 40s hat wearing had already been on the decline in the US and by the 50s was pretty much a decaying industry ... the quality followed accordingly

also by then many of the major hat manufacturers had been merging and with that the competition to produce a higher quality than your counterpart was gone

with declining competition and consumers we all know what happens

so the short answer is for me ... probably early to mid 40s and earlier

you will find some 50s gems without a doubt ... but they started to be come fewer and further between at that point and by the 60s it was gone

1967Cougar390 · Jun 10, 2018

moontheloon said:
hat making in the US has nothing to do with hats made elsewhere

hats made in the US pretty much went to $#!t right around the early to mid 50s ... as where something like Borsalino made in Italy stayed high quality for decades after that

quality as far as felt , leather and construction ...from the hundreds of US manufactured hats that I have handled ... early to mid 40s and earlier is where the quality that will make you shed a tear stands

I've never handled anything earlier than probably teens ... so I can only go by what I have handled ... teens through the 30s were nothing but absolute works of art

by the 40s hat wearing had already been on the decline in the US and by the 50s was pretty much a decaying industry ... the quality followed accordingly

also by then many of the major hat manufacturers had been merging and with that the competition to produce a higher quality than your counterpart was gone

with declining competition and consumers we all know what happens

so the short answer is for me ... probably early to mid 40s and earlier

you will find some 50s gems without a doubt ... but they started to be come fewer and further between at that point and by the 60s it was gone

I’m not trying to be funny as I always like to learn. What exactly made the hats in the mid 50’s go to $#!t? Was it the craftsmanship, materials or both?
Steven

moontheloon · Jun 10, 2018

1967Cougar390 said:
I’m not trying to be funny as I always like to learn. What exactly made the hats in the mid 50’s go to $#!t? Was it the craftsmanship, materials or both?
Steven

I would assume that it was the lack of competition in the field and less demand for the product as I stated in my last post

those were really the only reasons to make a high quality product and they were all but gone

MondoFW · Jun 10, 2018

moontheloon said:
I would assume that it was the lack of competition in the field and less demand for the product as I stated in my last post

those were really the only reasons to make a high quality product and they were all but gone

You beat me to responding to him. I'm really not sure why the popular thought today is that EVERYONE had a hat on their had in the 1950's. In most pictures and movies I've seen, it's really only older men that are, and they're probably holding on to their old hats, from when they were made well! Younger men were already revolting against hat-wearing in the 1940's, because they didn't want to ruin their cool haircuts with a hat. Now, look at a pic from the 20's and 30's and hats will engulf any crowd. This competition in the industry theory makes sense. Now to get my hands on a pre-40's hat, one with a vibrant royal purple lining! White's getting old.

M Hatman · Jun 11, 2018

Yes, all the above!!! Higher wages, higher costs, less hats being sold.....various price fixing issues from the Government.......the war years through the mid fifties were tough times....AND even with out the forced prices, the hat companies themselves tried to keep selling at the $10 to $15 price points (a huge mistake on their part).........something had to give, and that was quality!!!!!!! It has always been my contention that the hat companies intentionally made the shorter brim (and lower crowns) trend just to save $$$$$ and they themselves drove the "fashion" for that very reason. AND with shorter brims hats became less practical and "just a fashion statement" and that, combined with the lower crowns, WOULD mess up your hair!! So....in addition to the younger men, even the older men were saying NO to a hat!
Just my two cents.....
M

PS Oh, and Mercury was discontinued in US hat production just prior to the War as it was a valuable Strategic War material needed for other military processing (fulminate of Mercury being one of the largest) and instrument use.

1967Cougar390 · Jun 11, 2018

moontheloon said:
I would assume that it was the lack of competition in the field and less demand for the product as I stated in my last post

those were really the only reasons to make a high quality product and they were all but gone

Moon I understand the general comment that the competition in the field was dwindling but the drop in quality has me at a loss. I’ll compare Ford Motor Company right now. They are basically getting out of the car business and are only going to make SUV’s and trucks. I can’t imagine that GM executives are or will be saying “we can lower our quality because we don’t have the competition from Ford any longer”. Or in my line of work we have less structure fires due to fire education and prevention. We train harder than ever to deliver quality when we get a emergency call. I look at today’s hats and I see quality but I don’t have any vintage hats. I feel that some of the down play that I read on modern hats or hats from a certain era might be just ones personal preference, which is fine. After all that’s what makes this hobby and the Fedora Lounge great.

Steven

scottyrocks · Jun 11, 2018

I don't know that a GM/Ford comparison works here.

Until autonomous vehicles dominate the landscape, which could be decades from now, cars, in general, are indispensable to the general populace. Even if, say Ford, were to stop making cars, if GM were to consciously lower quality, they would still need to contend with overseas competition (Japan's big 3, fer instance - Honda, Nissan, Toyota), whom they are already (still) having trouble keeping up with.

When men stopped wearing hats (and it was a gradual thing - it wasn't like everyone woke up one day and decided not to wear hats), nothing changed, except maybe more umbrellas were sold.

moontheloon · Jun 11, 2018

1967Cougar390 said:
Moon I understand the general comment that the competition in the field was dwindling but the drop in quality has me at a loss. I’ll compare Ford Motor Company right now. They are basically getting out of the car business and are only going to make SUV’s and trucks. I can’t imagine that GM executives are or will be saying “we can lower our quality because we don’t have the competition from Ford any longer”. Or in my line of work we have less structure fires due to fire education and prevention. We train harder than ever to deliver quality when we get a emergency call. I look at today’s hats and I see quality but I don’t have any vintage hats. I feel that some of the down play that I read on modern hats or hats from a certain era might be just ones personal preference, which is fine. After all that’s what makes this hobby and the Fedora Lounge great.

Steven

first ... comparing hat companies to Fo. Mo. Co. just doesn't work

second .... I'm sure no one made a conscious decision to lower their quality

it is just what happens when demand drops and there are far less sales ... you have to either cut corners or find other material sources to meet a bottom line

if you look at todays hats and see quality then maybe we can pick up this conversation in a few years

there is absolutely no comparison in hats made 75 to 80 years ago to hats made within the last 40 or so ... completely different animals that happen to be called the same thing

I walk into hats shops all the time and just shake my head at the absolute garbage that they stock on the shelves under the guise of names... and that all they are now , names ... not actual independent companies anymore... who used to put out the highest of quality

jlee562 · Jun 11, 2018

1967Cougar390 said:
Moon I understand the general comment that the competition in the field was dwindling but the drop in quality has me at a loss. I’ll compare Ford Motor Company right now. They are basically getting out of the car business and are only going to make SUV’s and trucks. I can’t imagine that GM executives are or will be saying “we can lower our quality because we don’t have the competition from Ford any longer”. Or in my line of work we have less structure fires due to fire education and prevention. We train harder than ever to deliver quality when we get a emergency call. I look at today’s hats and I see quality but I don’t have any vintage hats. I feel that some of the down play that I read on modern hats or hats from a certain era might be just ones personal preference, which is fine. After all that’s what makes this hobby and the Fedora Lounge great.

Steven

Well, there are objective things we can point to.

Consider the sweatband. Early Stetsons (per Matt Deckard's Instagram captions) used 2" wide cuts of sheepskin leather, later hats used 1 1/2" cowhide leather. Hence, the sweatband on my 100+ year old Stetson western is still supple, while the sweatband on my Playboy is slowly crumbling out of the hat.

And then of course, the mercury processed felts, as has been discussed here. The practice ended in 1941 in the States. Mercury was used to remove the fur from the pelts, and in doing so, physical changes to the individual barbs of fur were produced (see this 1902 pamphlet "Remarks on Felt Hatmaking....") I've read in other sources that this is related to the stripping of keratin from the individual hairs. This aided in the production of tighter, denser felt.

There are also other tangible things that just kind of evaporated. The Cavanagh, or felted edge, isn't made anymore. The D'orsay curl isn't done anymore. Longhair finishes aren't the same, neither are velours. Some of this institutional knowledge just went away as old hatmakers closed or simply retired.

deadlyhandsome · Jun 11, 2018

1967Cougar390 said:
Moon I understand the general comment that the competition in the field was dwindling but the drop in quality has me at a loss. I’ll compare Ford Motor Company right now. They are basically getting out of the car business and are only going to make SUV’s and trucks. I can’t imagine that GM executives are or will be saying “we can lower our quality because we don’t have the competition from Ford any longer”. Or in my line of work we have less structure fires due to fire education and prevention. We train harder than ever to deliver quality when we get a emergency call. I look at today’s hats and I see quality but I don’t have any vintage hats. I feel that some of the down play that I read on modern hats or hats from a certain era might be just ones personal preference, which is fine. After all that’s what makes this hobby and the Fedora Lounge great.

Steven

Hey Steven,

I was staying out of this because compared to some of those chiming in I’m a total lightweight. I too like modern hats and I continue to buy them. However, to be honest I go the new route, custom and mass produced, because of my 7 5/8 to 7 3/4 head. If I was say a size 6 7/8 or 7 I’d never even glance at a new hat. I’ve only owned a few golden era hats but that was enough to get me to understand what all the fuss is about. You owe it to yourself to feel and shape one of these vintage beauties.

In my search for the better felts in my size I ended up with a hat made by VS using a 1950s Mallory hat body: it’s very nice, but it’s not to be compared to the pre-war hats. At Anthony’s suggestion, I picked up two modern Stetson Excellent New York LE beaver hats. These are my favorite modern felts by far, even when comparing to customs. Still, the total hat build quality isn’t what the vintage hats were and to be honest as nice as these felts are they are still noticeably inferior to vintage.

I like my modern hats, and in my size a Premier or Excellent grade Stetson or an Akubra gets the job done and makes me smile so what more can I demand? As a parting, I’m in the process of commissioning a hat using a FEPSA felt and I’m hoping for good things.

Brent

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MondoFW · Jun 11, 2018

Glad to know something good has come out of my small body. I suppose people in the golden era just had superhero shoulders and tiny noggins.

Frunobulax · Jun 11, 2018

jlee562 said:
Well, there are objective things we can point to.

Consider the sweatband. Early Stetsons (per Matt Deckard's Instagram captions) used 2" wide cuts of sheepskin leather, later hats used 1 1/2" cowhide leather. Hence, the sweatband on my 100+ year old Stetson western is still supple, while the sweatband on my Playboy is slowly crumbling out of the hat.

And then of course, the mercury processed felts, as has been discussed here. The practice ended in 1941 in the States. Mercury was used to remove the fur from the pelts, and in doing so, physical changes to the individual barbs of fur were produced (see this 1902 pamphlet "Remarks on Felt Hatmaking....") I've read in other sources that this is related to the stripping of keratin from the individual hairs. This aided in the production of tighter, denser felt.

There are also other tangible things that just kind of evaporated. The Cavanagh, or felted edge, isn't made anymore. The D'orsay curl isn't done anymore. Longhair finishes aren't the same, neither are velours. Some of this institutional knowledge just went away as old hatmakers closed or simply retired.

Very good points, Jared. As moon also pointed out, the workmanship was better as well. Too often, I think of felt quality as being the main consideration of the older over the newer. However, the other elements are equally important.

Sent directly from my mind to yours.

alanfgag · Jun 11, 2018

We have a tendency to romanticize vintage here at the Fedora Lounge. A century ago and earlier, there was much competition and there were budget hats of lesser "quality" than hats that sold for more, and companies that focused on budget wares that traded off quality for price. I rather love my "Rechercehe", an c.1900 NOS dress western hat sold through the Greentree store in Cheyenne, Wyo. It has some very unusual and well crafted details like a silk underbrim wrapping and a very lovely debossed decorative imprint in the sweatband. But the sweatband is thin, with a budget feel to it. And the felt is absolutely awful... thin, unevenly pounced, rough in spots. It is a true budget offering designed to appeal to someone who was not going to spend the money for a Stetson. Adam hats held a similar position several decades later. "Qualities" might make for a richer discussion than the monolithic "quality." Many more things possible to add, but will leave it here for the moment.

cheers!

MondoFW · Jun 11, 2018

alanfgag said:
We have a tendency to romanticize vintage here at the Fedora Lounge. A century ago and earlier, there was much competition and there were budget hats of lesser "quality" than hats that sold for more, and companies that focused on budget wares that traded off quality for price. I rather love my "Rechercehe", an c.1900 NOS dress western hat sold through the Greentree store in Cheyenne, Wyo. It has some very unusual and well crafted details like a silk underbrim wrapping and a very lovely debossed decorative imprint in the sweatband. But the sweatband is thin, with a budget feel to it. And the felt is absolutely awful... thin, unevenly pounced, rough in spots. It is a true budget offering designed to appeal to someone who was not going to spend the money for a Stetson. Adam hats held a similar position several decades later. "Qualities" might make for a richer discussion than the monolithic "quality." Many more things possible to add, but will leave it here for the moment.

cheers!

This is a very interesting hat! Your observation concerns more budget-value companies and products, which are undoubtably going to suck, compared to a Stetson or Borsalino. However, you would agree that a hat of such caliber made around the time of your western hat would be much better than those of today, right?

moontheloon · Jun 12, 2018

alanfgag said:
We have a tendency to romanticize vintage here at the Fedora Lounge. A century ago and earlier, there was much competition and there were budget hats of lesser "quality" than hats that sold for more, and companies that focused on budget wares that traded off quality for price. I rather love my "Rechercehe", an c.1900 NOS dress western hat sold through the Greentree store in Cheyenne, Wyo. It has some very unusual and well crafted details like a silk underbrim wrapping and a very lovely debossed decorative imprint in the sweatband. But the sweatband is thin, with a budget feel to it. And the felt is absolutely awful... thin, unevenly pounced, rough in spots. It is a true budget offering designed to appeal to someone who was not going to spend the money for a Stetson. Adam hats held a similar position several decades later. "Qualities" might make for a richer discussion than the monolithic "quality." Many more things possible to add, but will leave it here for the moment.

cheers!

and it still looks lightyears beyond anything offered today

GHT · Jun 12, 2018

Dnewma04 said:
I have an Esther Weiss hat. I’d vote for 2010s as the best decade.

You read my mind, I have three hats that she has made, superb quality, beautifully styled and exquisitely hand crafted.

MondoFW said:
I'm really not sure why the popular thought today is that EVERYONE had a hat on their had in the 1950's. In most pictures and movies I've seen, it's really only older men that are, and they're probably holding on to their old hats, from when they were made well! Younger men were already revolting against hat-wearing in the 1940's, because they didn't want to ruin their cool haircuts with a hat. Now, look at a pic from the 20's and 30's and hats will engulf any crowd. This competition in the industry theory makes sense. Now to get my hands on a pre-40's hat, one with a vibrant royal purple lining! White's getting old.

Exactly so, the young men in UK fifties liked to copy the quiff hair style that Elvis wore. You don't want a hat ruining an hour of preening in front of a mirror. Half of the forties was taken up with WW2, everyone wore hats but most were military hats. Civilians got used to wearing what we called tin hats. The metal dome hat with a wide brim, worn by workers during air raids. Post war hat wearing went into a decline compared to pre-war.
I agree with Hatman, those of us who live in the developed countries of the world enjoy a high standard of living. To that end with labour charges being so much higher, the end product is going to reflect that.
The Bishops sell Bailey Western hats exclusively. Their best one is made of 100 percent beaver fur felt. With a feel as smooth as velvet, it costs $650.
1920's scene:

Decade that was the peak of hat quality?

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