So what separates a homburg from a fedora structurally?

mayserwegener said:

What vintage is your homburg?

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My homburg was made in February 2014, which is probably close enough to the vintage of the fedora that I'm comparing it with (an Akubra Sydney).

What is called a Fedora today would not have been called a Fedora from the late 1800s into the 1930s. A Fedora from that time period would have looked more like your modern Homburg.

Again I have never come across the name Fedora in any German or Austrian hat trade publication up to WWII. I always look because I want to see if I can find a connection. The only time I came across the name Homburg it was in an advertisement from (1899) PH. Möckel Hutfabrik, Homburg vor der Höhe (this company made the hat Edward VII brought back to England that was called the Homburg style hat) directed at English speaking markets. The problem is they called all their hats (soft and stiff) "Real Homburg Hats". They appeared more interested in the royal connection Hoflieferant Sr. Maj. d. Königs v. England "Official supplier to his Majesty the King of England".

Here is what a PH. Möckel Hutfabrik, Homburg vor der Höhe stiff felt liner looked like from that time period. Notice the mention of both the Kaisers and the Kings of England. I am not aware of any other German or Austrian hat company with the Kings of England distinction.



I have also looked through some copies of the Hatter's Gazette from late 1800s and early 1900s. It's apparent the English companies were not into Euro soft felt trends of that time and pushing stiff felts really hard. Some of this same mind set passed over to America.

Part of the quote in my post was deleted without my knowledge, which changed the contextual appearance of the post. I've since corrected it.

Hello, new here, first post. I just purchased a Steven Stetson homburg and it is a darn fine hat. Will post pictures when allowed to

David Niles said:

Hello, new here, first post. I just purchased a Steven Stetson homburg and it is a darn fine hat. Will post pictures when allowed to

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Welcome.

Thank you

David Niles said:

Thank you

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Have you spent some time going through the Homburg Nation thread? Time well spent and you’ll probably be able to see the differences quick enough.

As to semantics: if we say a fedora is a soft, felt, brimmed hat then homburgs could fall under that umbrella. However, we hat people make distinctions. Where a trilby (US usage) is just a subcategory of fedoras as they have stingy/short brims. Homburgs, Bowlers/Derbies, and top hats are classified as separate styles and not as a type of fedora. Additionally, there are hats that are in between styles. A “lords hat” is usually a homburg that does not have a bound brim but there isn’t strict adherence to nomenclature by all retailers. Last year I bought a “homburg” that did not have a bound brim but when I posted it here I referred to it as a lords hat. I also have a recent acquisition of what in many ways is a lords hat but it is a stiffer western weight felt and a wider than the usual brim range. Not all hats neatly fit into our hat taxonomy.

As commonly accepted, Homburgs have soft crowns (unlike bowlers/derbies), a permanently curled brim where the curl is mostly uniform around the circumference of the hat, and the brim is bound in ribbon. Fedoras usually have brims that can be snapped up of down and the brims are flanged to allow this to happen with tension so the shape is held. The brim on a homburg is not meant to be manipulated or flipped down. It is meant to be worn as made without change. The brim on a homburg also has a lot of curl: often 180 degrees. Homburgs are often seen with just a center dent crease without side dents whereas you most always see fedoras with side dents (lots of exceptions here). Photos are indeed worth a thousand words and I suggest you look through our archives.

Homburgs have traditionally been a more formal hat and fit between fedoras and top hats. The homburg is the traditional preferred hat to wear with a dinner suit/tuxedo. I’ve also never seen a homburg without a flat crown ribbon whereas your cords around the crown are unique to various types of fedoras (I have them on a couple German hats too).

Hope this helped.


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Good breakdown. The historical usage of the term fedora can be somewhat confusing, I'm sure most of us have seen images of old catalogues listing homburgs as fedoras. A lot of people often apply the term to flat-brimmed hats too, not just those with snap brims. I do wonder what category hats with an open roll brim would fit into in a modern context. I can understand them being excluded from strict homburgs/lord's hats, but feel uncomfortable regarding them as fedoras/trilbies.

Zoukatron said:

Good breakdown. The historical usage of the term fedora can be somewhat confusing, I'm sure most of us have seen images of old catalogues listing homburgs as fedoras. A lot of people often apply the term to flat-brimmed hats too, not just those with snap brims. I do wonder what category hats with an open roll brim would fit into in a modern context. I can understand them being excluded from strict homburgs/lord's hats, but feel uncomfortable regarding them as fedoras/trilbies.

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Are you referring to kettle curl and/or pencil curl brim treatments? I personally consider them fedoras as long as they are a soft felt and otherwise resemble fedoras. To me, a hat does not have to be a snap brim to be a fedora. I look at brim curls the same as I do other treatments: raw edge, bound, overwelt, underwelt, felted (Cavanagh), etc. just speaking for myself.


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I have been reading the homburg thread. Though my hat does not fit strictly under Homburg, it does not really fit under fedora either. The lip is curled, but it can be snapped. The brim is short, the hat is tall, no side dents and one crease down the middle. Tried to manipulate the crown and it would not hold another shape readily. It is a Stephen Stetson so maybe he was going with something in between. Would know more if the prior owner had not removed all the tags. Thanks for your assistance. I will call this my Homeburg .5. Lol

David Niles said:

View attachment 129641 View attachment 129642

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Your photos look like a normal fedora to me. The “curl” looks to be a type of Cavanagh Edge that is a type of brim treatment on fedoras. Feel free to call it whatever you want, as I said not all hats fit neatly into categories. As to the shape, not being able to hold another crease is not an indication that it’s a Homburg. Homburgs should also be able to hold side dents. Try steam if the felt is putting up a fight. Seeing that your hat has neither the brim shape, a bound brim, or a grosgrain or silk ribbon, it appears to be missing all the components normally associated with a homburg. I’ve seen dozens of hats identical to yours as they are readily available on the secondary market. I don’t have any skin in the game, but I just don’t see anything of a homburg in your photos.

No worries, not that important to me either. Fadorburg it is then

Looks in the vein of a tyrolean.

jlee562 said:

Looks in the vein of a tyrolean.

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Agreed. Definitely some teutonic influences.


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deadlyhandsome said:

Are you referring to kettle curl and/or pencil curl brim treatments? I personally consider them fedoras as long as they are a soft felt and otherwise resemble fedoras. To me, a hat does not have to be a snap brim to be a fedora. I look at brim curls the same as I do other treatments: raw edge, bound, overwelt, underwelt, felted (Cavanagh), etc. just speaking for myself.


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Interesting. I wonder if this is perhaps another UK vs US thing. I grew up with the term trilby, and use the for almost any hat sold as a fedora, regardless of brim width. If it has a snap brim, to me it's a trilby, so a classic pork pie is a trilby etc. I'm unaware of the term trilby being used histrorically for anything other than a snap brim (I could be vety wrong on that regard) so maybe my historical perception of the term trilby combined with the terms trilby and fedora meaning the same thing to me that leads me to classify fedoras as only hats with snap brims.

Zoukatron said:

Interesting. I wonder if this is perhaps another UK vs US thing. I grew up with the term trilby, and use the for almost any hat sold as a fedora, regardless of brim width. If it has a snap brim, to me it's a trilby, so a classic pork pie is a trilby etc. I'm unaware of the term trilby being used histrorically for anything other than a snap brim (I could be vety wrong on that regard) so maybe my historical perception of the term trilby combined with the terms trilby and fedora meaning the same thing to me that leads me to classify fedoras as only hats with snap brims.

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I am familiar with the UK use of “trilby” to be interchangeable with the US use of “Fedora.” My question is what would you call a fedora/trilby that has a flat brim? If you’re iron out the flange in a trilby’s brim so it no longer snaps what do we now have? What if the brim has a pencil/kettle curl but not a snap brim? If the brim is down at the front and back, a la the Indy hats, is this no longer a fedora? I don’t think it would automatically become an “outback hat.” To me, a pork pie is a stingy brim fedora with a unique crease and worn with the brim up. A pork pie can be re-creased to another more standard fedora shape so I have no problem referring to a pork pie as a certain type of fedora. A homburg, on the other hand, is fixed as a homburg and cannot be changed into a fedora without the hat undergoing a conversion involving much more than just changing the crease. In any case, these are all artificial classifications and there will always be some differences in definitions.

As to brim widths, I usually use the term stingy brim for short brim fedoras but it’s also common in the US to call them trilbies. Some UK makes also differentiate trilby and fedora so it gets confusing.

The original hat in question does not have any of the characteristics that makes a hat a homburg and it has all the characteristics that makes a hat a fedora/trilby. If the owner wants to see a homburg in it who really cares? However if you want to talk to other knowledgeable hat people or if you’re buying or selling we need common and agreed upon definitions.




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Zoukatron said:

Interesting. I wonder if this is perhaps another UK vs US thing. I grew up with the term trilby, and use the for almost any hat sold as a fedora, regardless of brim width. If it has a snap brim, to me it's a trilby, so a classic pork pie is a trilby etc. I'm unaware of the term trilby being used histrorically for anything other than a snap brim...

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I strongly agree with Zoukatron. Before c.1980 - perhaps even as late as 1990 - the word fedora was regarded in the UK as the American equivalent to trilby in UK English, much like UK rubbish = USA garbage.
And the UK trilby always has/had a snap brim.

Deadlyhandsome, I'm glad we agree about crown creases not defining a hat. In answer to the question about ironing a snap brim flat... To me this would certainly make a trilby no longer a trilby (I would inclined to call a country hat or safari hat or something like that). I would have said that means a fedora is no longer a fedora, but you're making question just how broad a range of hats Americans recognise as fedoras. I've always been opposed to the idea that trilbies and fedoras are different (or that trilbies are a subtype) partly because of British usage of the term and partly because I think saying a hat with a slightly smaller brim but otherwise the same structure is a different type is absurd. However, if the American perception of the term fedora includes flat brims, then in that sense trilbies could indeed be accurately regarded as a subtype of fedora. Interestingly, I have seen some British sellers state of their trilbies that they could be worn with the back of the brim snapped down like a fedora, which suggests some other British people are making other errors about just what the term applies by thinking have having the back snapped up stops it from being a fedora.

Hal said:

I strongly agree with Zoukatron. Before c.1980 - perhaps even as late as 1990 - the word fedora was regarded in the UK as the American equivalent to trilby in UK English, much like UK rubbish = USA garbage.
And the UK trilby always has/had a snap brim.

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Perhaps I did a poor job explaining. The Fedora Lounge was an offshoot of Indy hat appreciation and the Indy does not have a snap brim. I too have never seen a non-Indy fedora that did not start its life with a brim flanged so it could not be snapped. However, I also don’t think that a hat such as an Indy stops being a fedora because the brim can’t be snapped. Does that make any sense?

I agree that historically the UK use of trilby was the US equivalent of fedora.


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