New Standard & Strange X Simmons Bilt Natural Horsehide Jacket

Guppy · Dec 9, 2018

Superfluous said:
I intentionally avoided discussing SB’s history in this thread – not because my opinion of SB has diminished over time, but rather, because I sought to avoid the backlash by certain members who favor SB and prefer to move beyond the company’s origins. I bit my tongue when others brought up SB’s alleged use of patterns stolen from Aero and the associated immorality.

I felt much the same as you did, but then I went ahead and bought a SB jacket, much to my own surprise.

My rationale is as follows:

0) I completely respect the opinions of those who would not buy anything from SB under any circumstances.
1) Aero and AL had their day in court. A guilty party went to prison, there was some manner of restitution. It's settled. And in the end, SB was allowed to remain in business.
2) The SB models that are clear ripoffs of Aero patterns, I will not, would never, buy, because of the fact that they stole those patterns. I'm honestly surprised that the courts didn't put a stop to that. I don't know the law in the UK, but arguably, they should have.

On the other hand...

3) I did buy a unique design (so far, a one-off) from SB that could not be obtained anywhere else. So, I guess that's where I draw the line.
4) And it was on sale through their Outlet store. (So, there wasn't as much profit in it for them.)
5) For what it's worth, it's well-made and the materials and execution are as good as anything in my closets, which is saying something.
6) For what it's worth, their customer service, so far as I interacted with them, was quite good.

Most of their non-Aero sourced designs aren't interesting to me, but the Statesman that I bought, I really like. They are also slightly less expensive, and offer different options in terms of leathers, linings, etc.

I'll always think of Aero first, but I do think it's good that there's competition in the market. People who don't want to forgive SB their past don't have to, and I won't argue with them; I'm just stating why I was able to.

GregO · Dec 9, 2018

SB ... just a whole disgusting lot. A den of thieves, and nothing more.

red devil · Dec 9, 2018

GregO said:
SB ... just a whole disgusting lot. A den of thieves, and nothing more.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/posts/2494715/like
Such comments are what makes the whole SB thing ridiculous... and the reason people are tired.

Nobody is saying you should buy from SB or avoid to voice your opinion on why you wouldn't buy from them. If you decide to post about it, then at least post something worth reading.

On a personal note I do not have anything against or in favour of SB, simply because I know nothing about it beyond the court case, and finding out what really happened is most likely impossible and definitely an exercise in futility. A court case was made, the guilty party punished. Was it perfectly served, were there gaps? Who know? It really is not important enough for me to consider and speculate about, there are much bigger problems in the world.

HoosierDaddy · Dec 10, 2018

So true Grego. SB's wrong doing and disgusting attempt to ruin Aero was well documented here years ago along with details of the trial. The details that were revealed by those close to the parties involved and the attempts at recovering from a deliberate mess was a difficult process for Ken and his helpers to eventually put back together. The whole SB 'thing' is not ridiculous and the 'Den of Thieves' statement is completely relevant. They are still using ripped off patterns with no remorse whatsoever. Red devil If you only know bits and pieces of why some are still upset, then at least you might post something worth reading or if so disinterested try and refrain from scolding and lecturing someone who may remember the whole underhanded fiasco.
HD

red devil · Dec 10, 2018

HoosierDaddy said:
So true Grego. SB's wrong doing and disgusting attempt to ruin Aero was well documented here years ago along with details of the trial. The details that were revealed by those close to the parties involved and the attempts at recovering from a deliberate mess was a difficult process for Ken and his helpers to eventually put back together. The whole SB 'thing' is not ridiculous and the 'Den of Thieves' statement is completely relevant. They are still using ripped off patterns with no remorse whatsoever. Red devil If you only know bits and pieces of why some are still upset, then at least you might post something worth reading or if so disinterested try and refrain from scolding and lecturing someone who may remember the whole underhanded fiasco.
HD

The real question is who knows what? And the answer for most readers here is impossible to figure out. A comment such as "den of thieves" doesn't add anything to the conversation, so I stand by what I said. If you want to add something to this conversation take a leaf from @Superfluous 's book. He actually added some very interesting info regarding who still has significant control in the company and that made most readers think.

HoosierDaddy · Dec 10, 2018

What do you mean 'if' I want to add something. No one here needs or has asked for your guidance or advice. It seems you need to reread Superfluous's post intently yourself. Again, 'Den of Thieves' accurately describes Alex/SB Leather. It's not 'impossible' for many to figure out or search the details of that deliberate mess of betrayal, letting in future Alexander execs to copy and sew patterns on Aero's machines after hours, stolen on line sales, storse sold as HH, helping found a company by destroying a well established competitor and forcing the owner out of retirement to try and save it.

'Who knows what' is easily explained. Many/most long time members know the details and sequence of events and how they got where they are now. Some others, like you, weren't here as they unfolded. Then there are some, like you, who would rather pooh pooh all this as sketchy and 'who knows' to any who make claims of 'knowing'. A disrespectful dismissal of any who dare infer that they know.

'Den of Thieves' adds nothing to the conversation..unless it is true. In this case there is no doubt.

HD

Jejupe · Dec 10, 2018

I don't have anything pro or con for SB, but to me this "den of thieves" thing and whole discussion about SB reminds me of bunch of SJWs trying to destroy something or somebody based on their own idea of right and wrong. What ever you think you may know and be, you're still not the judge and jury, and you don't know all the details of this matter, even if you think you do.

Civilized societies have laws and courts to settle these matters. I believe appropriate court has made their decision and given their ruling. Do you lot really think that you know the whole story better than her majesty's court system? What each of us can and should do, is not to buy from a maker we think is unethical.

El Marro · Dec 10, 2018

I hesitated before creating this thread because I know where threads involving SB always seem to end up...
On a positive note the discourse here has been more civil than in many past threads.
Guppy’s last post summed up my own feelings on the subject much more succinctly than I could ever hope to. I would also like to add that I too believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion and is free to express that opinion here.
It would be nice though if people could do that without calling into question the validity or merit of others opinions or beliefs. Remember that we are all one big family of jacket loving people.

HoosierDaddy · Dec 10, 2018

Only certain info and evidence was allowed at trial for what the prosecution was aiming at. Much other info wasn't admissible since it was only Will Lauder (Aero's past manager) on trial. If the trial and it's outcome is your only concern..well then it is case closed. However many more underhanded deeds were committed and confirmed at the time that were not a part of the trial.

So yes, I am certain some of us know more of the story than the court was interested in. Ken Calder had to come back and repay unsatisfied customers and reconstruct what was left of Aero as a reputable company all because Alexander Leathers wanted to transform Aero Leathers into their new brand. If you don't want to believe any of that or dismiss it as unreliable...well then that is up to you.

HD

GregO · Dec 10, 2018

I stick by my Den of Thieves comment. But I do not feel like rehashing that whole saga. I'll sum up my view by saying that, to the extent possible, I try to do business with companies that I respect, both from a product standpoint and a business practices standpoint. SB will never get my business. And I'll try to make sure that people I know who are looking for a jacket don't look to SB.

Let's move on...and by moving on, I just mean change the subject.

GregO · Dec 10, 2018

You know, some good things came out of Lauder's thievery, at least from a customer's perspective. Calder came back to Aero, worked with his team to expand the range of styles Aero offers, added some leather choices, and sped up production, all while improving quality. Hats off to Calder. That's not easy to do.

Superfluous · Dec 10, 2018

^ HD is correct -- the prior criminal trial was not about whether AL/SB used jacket patterns stolen from Aero, nor AL/SB's conduct in general, and these issues have never been considered or adjudicated by a Court. To the contrary, the prior trial was primarily about whether Lauder, while employed by Aero, stole Aero's property. The Court determined that Lauder did steal Aero's property and he was imprisoned accordingly. My recollection is that Aero's jacket patterns were among the Aero property found at Lauder's home (I am not certain about this). Notwithstanding the stolen Aero patterns found at Lauder's home at the same time that he was founding AL/SB with Alexander, the timing and pace of AL/SB's creation, and the expert conclusion that AL/SB's jacket(s) was predicated on Aero's pattern, Aero elected not to pursue a civil claim against SB/AL (the cost of such a claim is considerable, not to mention the emotional strain). Therefore, AL/SB's alleged use of Aero's patterns stolen by Lauder -- one of AL/SB's founders -- has never been decided by a Court and those who point to the prior criminal proceedings as the beginning and end of the issue are mistaken.

Separately, I disagree with the notion that, if a matter is adjudicated through the Courts, that somehow precludes people from thereafter sharing their opinions regarding the underlying conduct. By way of example, at the conclusion of his criminal proceedings, OJ Simpson was deemed not guilty. That determination dd not, by any stretch of the imagination, end the discussion regarding his conduct and whether justice had been served. Thus, even if AL/SB's conduct had been adjudicated by a Court -- it was not -- people remain free to discuss the underlying conduct and agree/disagree with the judicial determination.

Jejupe · Dec 10, 2018

Superfluous said:
^ HD is correct -- the prior criminal trial was not about whether AL/SB used jacket patterns stolen from Aero, nor AL/SB's conduct in general, and these issues have never been considered or adjudicated by a Court. To the contrary, the prior trial was primarily about whether Lauder, while employed by Aero, stole Aero's property. The Court determined that Lauder did steal Aero's property and he was imprisoned accordingly. My recollection is that Aero's jacket patterns were among the Aero property found at Lauder's home (I am not certain about this). Notwithstanding the stolen Aero patterns found at Lauder's home at the same time that he was founding AL/SB with Alexander, the timing and pace of AL/SB's creation, and the expert conclusion that AL/SB's jacket(s) was predicated on Aero's pattern, Aero elected not to pursue a civil claim against SB/AL (the cost of such a claim is considerable, not to mention the emotional strain). Therefore, AL/SB's alleged use of Aero's patterns stolen by Lauder -- one of AL/SB's founders -- has never been decided by a Court and those who point to the prior criminal proceedings as the beginning and end of the issue are mistaken.

Separately, I disagree with the notion that, if a matter is adjudicated through the Courts, that somehow precludes people from thereafter sharing their opinions regarding the underlying conduct. By way of example, at the conclusion of his criminal proceedings, OJ Simpson was deemed innocent. That determination dd not, by any stretch of the imagination, end the discussion regarding his conduct and whether justice had been served. Thus, even if AL/SB's conduct had been adjudicated by a Court -- it was not -- people remain free to discuss the underlying conduct and agree/disagree with the judicial determination.

I am sorry, but as english is not my first language I cannot follow this level of lawyer talk. But are you basically saying, that I can call you a thief on public forum if your associate has been found guilty of stealing and I have heard from reliable sources that you were part of it or if this reliable source is saying that you are using some stolen intellectual property? In my country this would be illegal. I'd appreciate an answer that I can understand with my basic level english language.

Maitiu · Dec 10, 2018

Man this escalated quickly! Sorry I asked,lol.

Jejupe · Dec 10, 2018

Maitiu said:
Man this escalated quickly! Sorry I asked,lol.

If you like to start sh*tstorms, Maybe you can ask next time if Bill Kelso has nice customer service...

Maitiu · Dec 10, 2018

Jejupe said:
If you like to start sh*tstorms, Maybe you can ask next time if Bill Kelso has nice customer service...

lol, that's actually another brand I'm looking to get a jacket from. I've got a list, and SB and BK are on it.

Jejupe · Dec 10, 2018

Maitiu said:
lol, that's actually another brand I'm looking to get a jacket from. I've got a list, and SB and BK are on it.

Run. You're in Salem now, Witch!

Fanch · Dec 10, 2018

I wish I had the capability of expressing myself like @Superfluous and @HoosierDaddy but unfortunately I do not. However, even if I did, I doubt I could add to what Super and HD have already expressed.

The only thing I can add is that over the course of my travels, I have had the opportunity of meeting Ken, Lydia, and Holly Calder. Ken and Lydia went to the effort of driving over narrow and tortuous roads to meet me and deliver a Sheene I had previously ordered to the port in Invergordon (Scotland) where my Holland America ship was docked. Ken and Lydia then drove me to a reataurant and wouldn't even allow me to pay for lunch!

The point I am trying to make is that I have come to see the Calders as family. Aero is, after all, a small family run business. With the deception and chicanery leveled at them by Lauder and AL/SB, I have a long-standing antipathy leveled at SB that sits at an intensely personal level to the extent I wouldn't accept a SB product even if it were given to me and I owned no other leather jacket.

Picture of Ken & Lydia Calder taken by me in Invergordon Scotland. The 50's HB Ken is wearing is one that he himself made that had been stolen by Lauder and subsequently recovered.

HoosierDaddy · Dec 10, 2018

Ken called me from Scotland just as he returned out of retirement and was discovering how Mark Moye ( US Rep) and Will Lauder (among others) had together flagrantly jeopardized his company. He was wondering if Mark had a drug problem to cause him to keep customers money but not order or ship the Aero jackets. Ken seemed very determined to dig into these discoveries and get a grip on them. It took him several years to repair the damage.

Mich486 · Dec 10, 2018

At the end of the day the discussion ended up where some people wanted to. Like I said, it is impossible to discuss SB jackets in a meaningful manner although some members think this is the right thing to do as SB deserve this.

If I were the OP I’d be a bit upset by this behaviour, but that’s just me. For some SB threads are just a way of expressing their indignation. I’d be curious to know whether some of these people will stop buying at S&S too (or own any product by Nigel cabourn, Edwin, Iron heart etc.).

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New Standard & Strange X Simmons Bilt Natural Horsehide Jacket

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