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Crazy !
- Thread starter John Lever
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Superfluous
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Interesting discussion. I think @Big J is spot on. Value is subjective. Moreover, pricing is non-linear and, as one pursues the finer, esoteric details and nuances incorporated into superlative products, one must pay a non-linear premium. Many subjectively believe the non-linear premium associated with superlative products is excessive. That is a perfectly appropriate and rational perspective. However, it is equally appropriate to want superlative products and to believe that the non-linear pricing associated with superlative products is money well spent fore the incremental quality/benefit.
The RMC jacket at issue is gorgeous -- the construction and materials are superlative. If someone is seeking a superlative jacket and is willing to pay a non-linear premium for the outstanding materials, construction and appearance, that is their prerogative. More important to this discussion, that is a rational decision based on a subjective determination of value and the incremental benefits of the RMC jacket over other available options.
Some say this particular RMC jacket is no better than similar jackets offered by certain competitors. That too is an opinion and subject to debate. Others believe the RMC jacket is palpably better than its competitors. Yet another opinion. Arguments exist in both directions, and there is no objective answer.
The bottom line is this: If one perceives the RMC jacket as better than its competitors and has the financial means to buy it notwithstanding the non-linear pricing, I say good for them! Why would anyone be bothered by this?
The foregoing concepts are not unique to the jacket or clothing industry. One must pay a non-linear premium for superlative products in most sectors. Is a Ferrari worth five BMWs or six Corvettes? For many, the answer is an emphatic yes.
The thing I take exception with is the disparagement of people willing to pay non-linear premiums for superlative products that they perceive as better than the competition. "A fool and his money . . . " Why call someone a fool simply because they perceive a product as superlative, and palpably better than other similar products, and they are willing and able to pay the premium for that superlative product? Live and let live. The pejorative references are unnecessary and counterproductive.
The RMC jacket at issue is gorgeous -- the construction and materials are superlative. If someone is seeking a superlative jacket and is willing to pay a non-linear premium for the outstanding materials, construction and appearance, that is their prerogative. More important to this discussion, that is a rational decision based on a subjective determination of value and the incremental benefits of the RMC jacket over other available options.
Some say this particular RMC jacket is no better than similar jackets offered by certain competitors. That too is an opinion and subject to debate. Others believe the RMC jacket is palpably better than its competitors. Yet another opinion. Arguments exist in both directions, and there is no objective answer.
The bottom line is this: If one perceives the RMC jacket as better than its competitors and has the financial means to buy it notwithstanding the non-linear pricing, I say good for them! Why would anyone be bothered by this?
The foregoing concepts are not unique to the jacket or clothing industry. One must pay a non-linear premium for superlative products in most sectors. Is a Ferrari worth five BMWs or six Corvettes? For many, the answer is an emphatic yes.
The thing I take exception with is the disparagement of people willing to pay non-linear premiums for superlative products that they perceive as better than the competition. "A fool and his money . . . " Why call someone a fool simply because they perceive a product as superlative, and palpably better than other similar products, and they are willing and able to pay the premium for that superlative product? Live and let live. The pejorative references are unnecessary and counterproductive.
Its a whole cycle really. Sometimes I definitely feel a bit costumey so to speak. Buying a super rugged tough leather jacket based on a repro of a 1950s jacket. In 1950 it was just a jacket and took its abuse. Now I have this thicker, better quality, better stitching, hardware etc.. and I think should I wear this in the rain or snow? I also think at what cost do I put my limits? 1,000...2,000,...3000+? Thankfully we have options. The issue comes with RMC and the other more expensive makers who clearly have some market for their products and can keep pushing their prices higher and higher and good for them as business owners if the market is there, go make money. Its the fact it pushes the bottom end up as well. A more value maker may see that RMC is charging that and say well maybe we can raise our prices a hundred or 200 hundred more. Its still way cheaper, but when the entire market shifts it prices a lot of out of it all together.
Very fair point, but I think that RMC's case hits hard here because it's one of the brands we have been supporting for a while. If you add to this the trend of jackets getting more and more expensive, it makes sense that it would disturb most of us here in this forum.
I am alluding to ELC raising their prices quite a few times in recent times (I am just going by what I read on this forum, I have not really checked their prices myself) and other comments as to how LW prices used to be considered very high. I think Aero have also been raising their prices regularly as well, haven't they?
This hobby is becoming more expensive every year and RMC charging such prices could be one of the causes. Thought?
John Lever
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I think the shops are inflating prices. I recently bought 2 Freewheelers jackets directly from Japan, they were 2/3 the price.
Here is another
https://clutch-cafe.com/products/buzz-ricksons-br14140-b-3-mono-tone
Here is another
https://clutch-cafe.com/products/buzz-ricksons-br14140-b-3-mono-tone
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It's not just these repro clothing. Look at all the popular people of today. Or movie stars. Suddenly, every dude in Hollywood is suddenly sporting a vintage Buco, worn out jeans and even more worn out engineer boots. Never the same piece twice, though. Momoa is actually worse than Depp at this point and Depp was at least 15 years ahead of everyone.
Can't you just let us have at least this one thing, dear rich people?
But yeah, I completely agree with everything @BigJ said ITT. Especially with the part that "we" have done this. Not me, I'm poor af but TFL, combined with SF and Supertalk definitely had an impact on the prices of these jackets. Not VLJ though as nobody knows that place even exists.
The up-charge on the RMC was about 33% so it fits with your experience
Superfluous
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First, I seriously doubt that RMC's pricing on this particular jacket, nor on any other jacket, has caused a broader shift in pricing my other manufacturers. RMC does not have that market influence.
Second, the RMC jacket in question is a quasi-special edition piece that is priced higher than the majority of RMC's other jackets. RMC's popular Buco J-100 repro is *only* 183,000 yen: https://www.realmccoys.co.jp/catalog/products/detail.php?product_id=4330&pg= . Therefore, using the subject RMC jacket as a benchmark for RMC's overall pricing is not accurate. The more popular RMC jackets are priced lower.
Third, RMC's Buco J-100 repro was similarly priced in 2014 when I purchased one and has not materially increased in price over the past several years. Therefore, it appears that RMC may be bucking the trend of price increases cited in your post and by others in this thread.
Fourth, as laymen, we do not understand the reasons for the price increases recently implemented by certain manufacturers. We do not understand the recent changes in their costs, if any. It is easy to assume that the manufacturers are merely being greedy, without any underlying cost changes. However, it may be the case that recent price increases were driven by underlying changes in costs that are unknown to consumers.
Fifth, if the recent price hikes are in fact the product of greedy manufacturers, as opposed to underlying cost changes, this presents an excellent opportunity for other manufacturers to fill the void by supplying the same quality products for lower prices.
Sixth, one must roll with and adapt to price increases that are inevitable in all industries. Some will pursue different products. Others will bite the bullet and pay the increased prices. Some will make compromises. This is the nature of the beast. Over time, prices increase. Hopefully, our incomes also increase. If not, we need to adjust our purchasing habits. This is nothing new and certainly not unique to the jacket industry. I wish I could buy a current model Ferrari at past pricing. I wish I could buy my parents' home for the price they paid in 1967. But, alas, prices increase and we adapt.
Good question, how big is RMC compared to other makers? Genuinely curious about that now that this point is raised.
The price of leather hasn't increased drastically overall recently according to what I have seen so far . As for other factors, I can't see anything that would warrant big increases in prices. Would love to be proven wrong on this assumption if that is the case
There seems to be an increase of makers in our niche, so that would corroborate the price increase in our hobby attracting more people wanting to cash in.
Sure prices increase with inflation and demand, and the prices increase seen and discussed recently are higher than inflation. So that would potentially be due to demand, and not an increase in manufacturing costs.
So overall, is our niche becoming more popular and causing prices to rise? Seems quite plausible.
nick123
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I should amend my condescending (but totally sarcastic) remark about that guy driving the Maserati. It was a nice car indeed. I don't think anyone here is disparaging a person for their wealth; rather, the undercurrent of price increases around the board that have left customers wondering whether themselves, purists, are being abandoned for another customer base entirely. That is a reasonable complaint...
However, being a somewhat staunch supporter of free market enterprise, I say let these companies do as they wish (or even must). The beauty in all of this is though us general folk must endure a very cold winter, springtime will inevitably surface; in a new form altogether. New companies at a better pricepoint may one day emerge, as well as the refinement of existing ones. These pains are temporary, albeit just the mechanations of a capitalist society. If someone has worked hard and wants to fork over $4k, let them. Hell, my dad went window shopping for a new Maserati once; he worked his tail off and was looking for something that southed his soul, much like our jackets do for us. That's a good thing. Let's just hope their heart is in the right place, and these jackets aren't merely an accessory to an end.
However, being a somewhat staunch supporter of free market enterprise, I say let these companies do as they wish (or even must). The beauty in all of this is though us general folk must endure a very cold winter, springtime will inevitably surface; in a new form altogether. New companies at a better pricepoint may one day emerge, as well as the refinement of existing ones. These pains are temporary, albeit just the mechanations of a capitalist society. If someone has worked hard and wants to fork over $4k, let them. Hell, my dad went window shopping for a new Maserati once; he worked his tail off and was looking for something that southed his soul, much like our jackets do for us. That's a good thing. Let's just hope their heart is in the right place, and these jackets aren't merely an accessory to an end.
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Mich486
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Let’s not forget Instagram, I think these days it is one of the main ways people get to know about the brands we discuss here. It’s a very powerful visual tool, just pictures no words, straight to the point.
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Yep, the “I want to look like that” gram. Gone are the days of trolling eBay, experiments and failures in the vintage market, learning about your own style. Now it’s just point and click and that’ll be $3k thank you very much. Next!
There are a range of views possible on this idea. There are also wealthy people who do not spend much money on consumer items like food, clothing or cars. They believe in thrift and may well be called tight by others.
My own take on a "fool and his money" is it can refer to any consumer item bought when it was either unnecessary or could be achieved for less. It's a saying that may apply to smart spending, not whether you can afford something or not.
I was going to say at one point I won't pay $1000 for a leather jacket, let alone $4000. I don't really see the difference in principle. In my case, I am fairly prosperous but I have simply inherited too much Calvinist thrift to justify the spending. For this reason I rarely spend more than $100 on any time of clothing - $20 preferably.
The old saying if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it isn't always true. Sometimes it's the point that matters
GHT
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When asked how to become a millionaire, Richard Branson replied: "You start by being a billionaire."
It’s a bit of a clan and hipster mentality too. We’re all slightly guilty of. As market, fashion, Instagram etc... a myriad of forces makes the things we like more popular, it’s really a “our thing” mentality isn’t it? This was our thing, we were here first, now look what’s happening, they don’t understand it or love it like we do! I do worry I’ll be potentially priced out. But I also know there’s places like this and certain sellers on eBay etc.. where we will take care of another and make fair trades and sell for fair prices. 50% fearful of where the market is heading, but 50% thankful/hopeful since I’ve gotten to experience TFL and get some deals done with people here. People who care and understand. So in all of our potential fears let us not forget what we’ve got right here! I know a bit lame but I truly believe this.
Well, I'm a natural cynic, so I see this as part of a larger trend. The trend marking the end of postwar prosperity and social equality (or something).
In recent years, a lot of the social benefits that our grandfathers generation was rewarded with for the sacrifices they made in WWII, social benefits our parents just took for granted as 'progress', are being rolled back.
The rich are getting richer, and the 'middle class' has been gutted. Being a 'white collar professional' is closer to blue collar than it ever was in the postwar era.
And the pricing of this jacket reflects this return to an era without post WWII social rewards; working people will buy one of these golden era repro jackets and wear the hell out of it for years and hand it down, just like they would have done in the 30's and 40's.
Celebrities, captains of industry, sports heroes, and those with a trust fund can afford to collect.
The era of postwar prosperity and the illusion of 'social equality' is over! It's back to business as usual; ordinary people are content to have 'enough', luxuries are for the elite!
Let them wear mall jackets!
In recent years, a lot of the social benefits that our grandfathers generation was rewarded with for the sacrifices they made in WWII, social benefits our parents just took for granted as 'progress', are being rolled back.
The rich are getting richer, and the 'middle class' has been gutted. Being a 'white collar professional' is closer to blue collar than it ever was in the postwar era.
And the pricing of this jacket reflects this return to an era without post WWII social rewards; working people will buy one of these golden era repro jackets and wear the hell out of it for years and hand it down, just like they would have done in the 30's and 40's.
Celebrities, captains of industry, sports heroes, and those with a trust fund can afford to collect.
The era of postwar prosperity and the illusion of 'social equality' is over! It's back to business as usual; ordinary people are content to have 'enough', luxuries are for the elite!
Let them wear mall jackets!
I wanted go there.... but held back. I didn’t want to politicize this subject which I suppose you didn’t necessarily. But that’s a fine line. I can go on and on this subject but will refrain... other than to say you’re pretty near the point here. There’s a lot at hand....and it ain’t pretty.
That is cynical, but this is a cynical age.
I have more optimism than that. Slightly. Crazy prices for have always been with us. But usually they are set unreasonably high for ugly, evanescent fashion gear. This has now hit the hipster, artisan-made and authentic workwear industry, call it what you will. But we can still find plenty of good jackets that do the job for a fraction of tbe $.
Many interesting comments.
I guess it doesn't really matter what the cause/reason for high prices is. We've had this discussion a couple of times over the last few years. It's just the direction the market is headed in.
These Japanese jackets do seem expensive, but they don't have trouble selling them in Japan.
Maybe a part of it is how stagnant standards of living are in some western countries? Something you don't notice until you're confronted with something like this from outside?
I happened to be back in the cheap part of town where I lived as a student the other day. It's still full of one room student apartments. Outside on the street I saw four Lambos, two Ferraris, a 60's Mk. II Jag, a 60's Mustang and an Aston Martin. When I went back to the car park, there was a McClaren P1 parked opposite. I didn't take any pictures because it's not especially unusual.
Japan has record poverty levels, but still way more rich people than I ever saw back home.
RMC can easily sell out of this jacket.
I guess it doesn't really matter what the cause/reason for high prices is. We've had this discussion a couple of times over the last few years. It's just the direction the market is headed in.
These Japanese jackets do seem expensive, but they don't have trouble selling them in Japan.
Maybe a part of it is how stagnant standards of living are in some western countries? Something you don't notice until you're confronted with something like this from outside?
I happened to be back in the cheap part of town where I lived as a student the other day. It's still full of one room student apartments. Outside on the street I saw four Lambos, two Ferraris, a 60's Mk. II Jag, a 60's Mustang and an Aston Martin. When I went back to the car park, there was a McClaren P1 parked opposite. I didn't take any pictures because it's not especially unusual.
Japan has record poverty levels, but still way more rich people than I ever saw back home.
RMC can easily sell out of this jacket.
Justhandguns
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In terms of repro military jacket, RMC is certainly one of the market leaders (as there aren't too many to start with). You are absolutely correct that their price has not increased significantly in the past few years, and is basically off-set by the better exchange rate of Japanese Yen. In a way, the price has dropped for foreign buyers outside of Japan literally. I consider RMC as more like an artisan like manufacturer and most of the products actually justify their high price tags.
As for the price hike of certain brands, there are some obvious explanations to it. ELC clearly want to shift from a repro maker towards a hipster/fashion style manufacturer, especially with the introduction of the ELMC line of jackets. They are also trying to expand their market in Japan and the rest of SE Asia, hence price matching their main competitors, RMC/Himel. Then we have the infamous Greece based BK, which we all welcomed them at one point for making affordable A-2 repros. It was then quickly acquired by the Brits, and they now try to align themselves with the like of ELC/Aero. I don't believe the cost has risen a lot to warrant such a price hike.
The demand in Asia has probably contributed quite a lot to the price increase, you simply cannot imagine how many jackets that they are shipping to places like Japan and Taiwan.
I think a lot of people here complain about 'being priced out' is a bit of an exaggeration, I am sure most of us can pay for a 3 grand jacket, the question is whether we think it is worth it. I have some very wealth friends and relatives, the way they shop is completely the opposite of what we normally think. I don't think I need to elaborate on this, but in the end, everybody likes to get a bargain.
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