Stetson Open Road vs Akubra Campdraft

jlee562 · Nov 4, 2018

Jedi5150 said:
Oh, that’s interesting to hear. Now when you say the vintage quality is higher, are you meaning only for very recent felt, or has it been lower quality for a long time? I guess what I’m asking is to get a truly high quality felt, was there a certain decade where quality started to drop?

for my money, anything after the 60's is just meh. The past decade or so has seen the nice growth of independent hatters raising the bar on quality.

But even top of the line customs barely scratch the quality of the best vintage hats. To be clear, vintage hats were made in a dizzying array of felt weights and qualities, so caveats abound to the generalizations herein. Not every vintage hat is automatically nicer than the custom work being done today. But, the thing about vintage felts is that they seemed to have been processed more thoroughly leading to a denser felt that is more pliable than modern felts.

Pre-war hats are the most coveted for good reason. In the US, the use of mercury during the felt production process was in use up until the 40's (I wanna say 41, but don't quote me on that). Beaver felts tighter than rabbit fur, because the individual hairs on beavers have microscopic barbs on them which allow the fibers to grab onto each other like velcro. The use of mercury during the felt making process creates similar microscopic barbs, thus allowing cheaper furs, like rabbit, to achieve higher density. This is one way in which vintage hats are objectively different things than modern hats aside from considerations of style and proportion. One other area is the sweatband. I'm contrast to the 'miraculous' shrinking sweats on Akubras, higher quality vintage hats had 2" high quality leather sweatband.

Still supple after more than a century. No "genuine" or bonded leather here.

We were also discussing trim the other week in the ask a question thread. Attention to detail was overall much higher. Here's the edge binding on my modern Stetson, its...ok.

Here's a vintage Stetson derby...almost invisible, especially from the top.

Anyways, that's a crash course in vintage vs modern.

deadlyhandsome · Nov 4, 2018

Jedi5150 said:
Ha! You’re safe. I’m a 60 (I have officially changed my size from a 59). In reality, I’m between the two, but I am more comfortable making a slightly large hat fit than I am making a slightly small hat stretch.

Thanks for the info. I’m very impressed with both the Imperial Grade and the Heritage Grade felts from Akubra. So if I’m smart, maybe I should try to never check out a vintage hat, so I won’t be disappointed in my hats.

Akubra owns their price point and they make a hard wearing hat that can take years of use. Some of their hats also have a nice shape that I like a lot. I think There is a niche for such hats and Akubra fills that niche very well.

If you ever touch some of the better felts you’ll be done for. I had some alright hats but then I stumbled upon a Churchill 50 and I had a religious experience. Since then I’ve found old European velours, pre-merger Mallorys, old Stetsons, etc., and my palate has forever been changed. At your size your in the same boat as I am; nice vintage hats are hard to come by.

Back to your original reservations with used hats: I don’t let anyone outside my immediate family wear my hats. When other want to put them on I firmly tell them no. They are an “intimate” item and not for communal use. I clean and freeze my vintage hats acquisitions before wearing them.

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drmaxtejeda · Nov 4, 2018

Jedi5150 said:
Ha! You’re safe. I’m a 60 (I have officially changed my size from a 59). In reality, I’m between the two, but I am more comfortable making a slightly large hat fit than I am making a slightly small hat stretch.

Thanks for the info. I’m very impressed with both the Imperial Grade and the Heritage Grade felts from Akubra. So if I’m smart, maybe I should try to never check out a vintage hat, so I won’t be disappointed in my hats.

Very wise. I should have done that. [emoji22]

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Jedi5150 · Nov 4, 2018

jlee562 said:
for my money, anything after the 60's is just meh. The past decade or so has seen the nice growth of independent hatters raising the bar on quality.

But even top of the line customs barely scratch the quality of the best vintage hats. To be clear, vintage hats were made in a dizzying array of felt weights and qualities, so caveats abound to the generalizations herein. Not every vintage hat is automatically nicer than the custom work being done today. But, the thing about vintage felts is that they seemed to have been processed more thoroughly leading to a denser felt that is more pliable than modern felts.

Pre-war hats are the most coveted for good reason. In the US, the use of mercury during the felt production process was in use up until the 40's (I wanna say 41, but don't quote me on that). Beaver felts tighter than rabbit fur, because the individual hairs on beavers have microscopic barbs on them which allow the fibers to grab onto each other like velcro. The use of mercury during the felt making process creates similar microscopic barbs, thus allowing cheaper furs, like rabbit, to achieve higher density. This is one way in which vintage hats are objectively different things than modern hats aside from considerations of style and proportion. One other area is the sweatband. I'm contrast to the 'miraculous' shrinking sweats on Akubras, higher quality vintage hats had 2" high quality leather sweatband.

Still supple after more than a century. No "genuine" or bonded leather here.

We were also discussing trim the other week in the ask a question thread. Attention to detail was overall much higher. Here's the edge binding on my modern Stetson, its...ok.

Here's a vintage Stetson derby...almost invisible, especially from the top.

Anyways, that's a crash course in vintage vs modern.

Thanks Jared, I appreciate it! Those photos and description really help.

deadlyhandsome · Nov 4, 2018

Moon’s video on diamond creasing a new production Borsalino shows that some of the new hats have some decent felt; you can’t do that with a new Royal DeLuxe Stetson let alone an Akubra. The current Stetson Excellent felt is another example of nice felt being made in the post mercury era. I’d love to get my hands on a new FEPSA 100% beaver felt to see what they’re all about.

I don’t think that new felt will ever be as nice as the best felt from 80+ years ago, but I’m hoping we can get closer.

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Zombie_61 · Nov 5, 2018

Jedi5150 said:
...I’m very impressed with both the Imperial Grade and the Heritage Grade felts from Akubra. So if I’m smart, maybe I should try to never check out a vintage hat, so I won’t be disappointed in my hats.

The guy in the seat next to yours in that boat is me. I really like my Akubras, but the felt and finish on my only custom hat (Cane's Creations, now Alley Kat Hat Co., made by Tim Mahovich) is so much nicer and softer and that hat's only 4-1/2 years old. If what everyone here says about vintage hats is true, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, I'm probably better off not ever being exposed to one. Sometimes ignorance truly is bliss.

drmaxtejeda · Nov 5, 2018

jlee562 said:
for my money, anything after the 60's is just meh. The past decade or so has seen the nice growth of independent hatters raising the bar on quality.

But even top of the line customs barely scratch the quality of the best vintage hats. To be clear, vintage hats were made in a dizzying array of felt weights and qualities, so caveats abound to the generalizations herein. Not every vintage hat is automatically nicer than the custom work being done today. But, the thing about vintage felts is that they seemed to have been processed more thoroughly leading to a denser felt that is more pliable than modern felts.

Pre-war hats are the most coveted for good reason. In the US, the use of mercury during the felt production process was in use up until the 40's (I wanna say 41, but don't quote me on that). Beaver felts tighter than rabbit fur, because the individual hairs on beavers have microscopic barbs on them which allow the fibers to grab onto each other like velcro. The use of mercury during the felt making process creates similar microscopic barbs, thus allowing cheaper furs, like rabbit, to achieve higher density. This is one way in which vintage hats are objectively different things than modern hats aside from considerations of style and proportion. One other area is the sweatband. I'm contrast to the 'miraculous' shrinking sweats on Akubras, higher quality vintage hats had 2" high quality leather sweatband.

Still supple after more than a century. No "genuine" or bonded leather here.

We were also discussing trim the other week in the ask a question thread. Attention to detail was overall much higher. Here's the edge binding on my modern Stetson, its...ok.

Here's a vintage Stetson derby...almost invisible, especially from the top.

Anyways, that's a crash course in vintage vs modern.

Excellent explanation!

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

drmaxtejeda · Nov 5, 2018

Zombie_61 said:
The guy in the seat next to yours in that boat is me. I really like my Akubras, but the felt and finish on my only custom hat (Cane's Creations, now Alley Kat Hat Co., made by Tim Mahovich) is so much nicer and softer and that hat's only 4-1/2 years old. If what everyone here says about vintage hats is true, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, I'm probably better off not ever being exposed to one. Sometimes ignorance truly is bliss.

I would have saved a lot of money, but missed out on a lot of joy and pride.
P.S. Hey, now that I think about it, buying vintage hats is a lot like marrying my wife!!! [emoji2]

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The Nid Hog · Aug 12, 2019

After reading through this thread a couple of dozen times, I finally ordered a Camp Draft for myself. I've worn a lot of caps over the years, but never felt the urge to try anything else. Then, last year, I was visiting my daughter in Boston and she got me to try on some hats at a store in her neighborhood. She had decided that I should get one "like LBJ used to wear." After that, I started noticing people around me wearing Open Road-styled hats, and I thought it might be time to give it a try. If there were any stores around me that had Open Roads in stock, I would probably be wearing one already--the lure of the impulse buy at a brick and mortar. But the discussion here convinced me to try an Akubra first. So I hit send this morning on an order to Everything Australian. Now to wait--hopefully I will have figured out how to do the Cattleman's Crease by the time it gets here.

Boomerang · Aug 12, 2019

The Nid Hog said:
After reading through this thread a couple of dozen times, I finally ordered a Camp Draft for myself ... hopefully I will have figured out how to do the Cattleman's Crease by the time it gets here.

I was a bit hesitant about the bashing of my new Camp Draft when it arrived about 10 days ago. I patiently repeated my dry-bash several times per day for almost a week before the felt "took" the crease and held it for about 18 hours without relaxing. Only then did I put some steam to it, and I'm very happy with the way it turned out. I have no idea whether or not that is a "normal" way to proceed, but it worked for me. Good luck!

Zombie_61 · Aug 12, 2019

The Nid Hog said:
After reading through this thread a couple of dozen times, I finally ordered a Camp Draft for myself...Now to wait--hopefully I will have figured out how to do the Cattleman's Crease by the time it gets here.

First, welcome to The Lounge! Second, it sounds like you've been here before so surely you're aware that you are now required to post photos of your new Camp Draft as soon as you've given it it's first crease; preferably on your head.

Hurricane Jack · Aug 13, 2019

The Nid Hog said:
After reading through this thread a couple of dozen times, I finally ordered a Camp Draft for myself. I've worn a lot of caps over the years, but never felt the urge to try anything else. Then, last year, I was visiting my daughter in Boston and she got me to try on some hats at a store in her neighborhood. She had decided that I should get one "like LBJ used to wear." After that, I started noticing people around me wearing Open Road-styled hats, and I thought it might be time to give it a try. If there were any stores around me that had Open Roads in stock, I would probably be wearing one already--the lure of the impulse buy at a brick and mortar. But the discussion here convinced me to try an Akubra first. So I hit send this morning on an order to Everything Australian. Now to wait--hopefully I will have figured out how to do the Cattleman's Crease by the time it gets here.

NH, you didn't say what color you ordered. As best as anyone can tell the softness of Akubra felt seems to vary by dye batch, not necessarily color. So all you can really hope for is that your's came from a softer batch. I have 6 CD's & by far the firmest felt of mine is the Moonstone in Heritage grade.

I have 3 currently creased as a Cattleman. One of the things I really like about the CD vs a modern OR is that with a 6" open crown the CD can be creased with a Cattleman & still end up with 5-1/2" at the front dip, more like an earlier vintage OR.

Mid-Brown CD

Taupe Fawn CD

Glen Gray CD (looking for a 13/16" ribbon)

Woodtroll · Aug 13, 2019

The Nid Hog said:
After reading through this thread a couple of dozen times, I finally ordered a Camp Draft for myself. I've worn a lot of caps over the years, but never felt the urge to try anything else. Then, last year, I was visiting my daughter in Boston and she got me to try on some hats at a store in her neighborhood. She had decided that I should get one "like LBJ used to wear." After that, I started noticing people around me wearing Open Road-styled hats, and I thought it might be time to give it a try. If there were any stores around me that had Open Roads in stock, I would probably be wearing one already--the lure of the impulse buy at a brick and mortar. But the discussion here convinced me to try an Akubra first. So I hit send this morning on an order to Everything Australian. Now to wait--hopefully I will have figured out how to do the Cattleman's Crease by the time it gets here.

Welcome to the Lounge! You made a good choice, as the Campdraft is a fine hat to start with (or even finish with!).

The Nid Hog · Aug 13, 2019

Hurricane Jack said:
NH, you didn't say what color you ordered. As best as anyone can tell the softness of Akubra felt seems to vary by dye batch, not necessarily color. So all you can really hope for is that your's came from a softer batch. I have 6 CD's & by far the firmest felt of mine is the Moonstone in Heritage grade.

I ordered it in Silver Belly. I ordered from Everything Australian, and they only had three colors on offer—Bluegrass Green, Taupe Fawn (with a two-month wait), and Silver Belly.

J Williams · Aug 13, 2019

The Nid Hog said:
I ordered it in Silver Belly. I ordered from Everything Australian, and they only had three colors on offer—Bluegrass Green, Taupe Fawn (with a two-month wait), and Silver Belly.

You can't go wrong with Silver Belly for your first hat. My Silver Belly OR was what started me down the path. Welcome to the lounge.

The Nid Hog · Aug 16, 2019

Although I just ordered my Camp Draft earlier this week, it's here already. The felt seems to be a nice combination of soft and firm, and it fits comfortably. I like the color too. I went with a quick dry bash so that I could post a photo. This weekend, I'll try for a Cattleman's Crease and see how that goes.

Obsessed · Nov 12, 2019

The Nid Hog said:
View attachment 180829 Although I just ordered my Camp Draft earlier this week, it's here already. The felt seems to be a nice combination of soft and firm, and it fits comfortably. I like the color too. I went with a quick dry bash so that I could post a photo. This weekend, I'll try for a Cattleman's Crease and see how that goes.

Well look who’s here! Looks great!

The Nid Hog · Nov 12, 2019

Obsessed said:
Well look who’s here! Looks great!

Fancy meeting you here! Beard + Hat leads to a change in venue.

Obsessed · Nov 12, 2019

The Nid Hog said:
Fancy meeting you here! Beard + Hat leads to a change in venue.

Yes, it would be unfortunate if someone got confused and tried to make a shaving brush out of your beard.

mattmiller1973 · Feb 24, 2020

Isn’t the cattleman’s crease the whole point of an open Road? If you want a daimond bash and no tapers why wouldn’t you just get a stratoliner?

No offense intended, and ignorance here freely admitted.

But the point of an open Road, as I understand it, is to get a slightly dressier western look. Texas goes to the White House, so to speak. The daimond bash seems more Madison Avenue or maybe more Australian.

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