Langlitz: Why not horsehide?

Decided to reread this thread (it's been a while) and came across a post about how Langlitz' leather doesn't have much grain or character to it, and how the styles are limited. I just wanted to post two pics of my Cascade to prove that comment wrong. Brand new out of the wrapping a Langlitz looks pretty plain, but after some long hard use the real beauty comes out.


My straight-zip Cascade with elbow pads.





Plenty of character and grain.. can't get much better in fact.




Tommer

I got my Columbia ni '92 and my Westerns in '93. I'm just in conversation now about my next jacket. I'll see if I can grab a few pics when I'm home for the weekend.

Thanks Himelator for your insight

Tommer45 said:

Decided to reread this thread (it's been a while) and came across a post about how Langlitz' leather doesn't have much grain or character to it, and how the styles are limited. I just wanted to post two pics of my Cascade to prove that comment wrong. Brand new out of the wrapping a Langlitz looks pretty plain, but after some long hard use the real beauty comes out.


My straight-zip Cascade with elbow pads.

Plenty of character and grain.. can't get much better in fact.

Tommer

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NICE! Great jacket!

Here's my Columbia, built January '93 and showing some good character too



the pants were built in September '93

that cascade

wow that cascade is gorgeous!

Currently the chinese will tan anything..as will most tanners. The reality is there is little demand for hh in chinese manufacture...most products require a more generic stock of leather and lamb and goat are the main byproduct animals over there combined with u.s. exports of cow.
Right now today there is a shortage of raw HH in the market because demand has increased by european and n.a. tanners to meet the vintage and shoe markets. Also due to the horse lobby North American horses are no longer a good source of skins. The callous animal lobby has forced the shipment of horses via rail car long distances and they horses are scratched and scarred by the time they are slaughtered and the leather is not good for garment or shoe. So as it stands HH is a re emerging leather product and pet lobbiests have for the most part blocked the trade in the USA which is the biggest supplier of horsemeat and horse related products locally. I am not focused on the pet debate regarding horses but I hear about it from tanners and agro people all the time...oh btw check out my new website as I am trying to build traffic
www.himelbros.com

best
David.

Fletch said:

If himelator is still looking in, I'd like him to fill in a little "unknown" in his explanation: why won't the Chinese tan horsehide? I'd think China would make or supply anything there was still a market for.

His argument was more or less thus:
- Expensive (or at least intensive) labor and tough environmental regs mean less HH is tanned in the west.
- But despite cheap labor and loose environmental regs moving much tannery trade to China, they handle little or no HH.

What are we leaving out here? Lack of horses in the far east? High cost to ship untanned HH versus demand for tanned HH?

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It's been my conviction for quite awhile now that US anti-horse-processing laws have very little to do with animal welfare and much more to do with animal rights - ie, a human conceit held by ideologues who don't care about cruelty to animals nearly as much as they do about humans "using" them at all.

They're smart enough to know this won't sell, so they've gotten good at lobbying well-meaning animal lovers by stressing the welfare angle and passing over their rights aims. This obviously helped get them a plurality of NIMBYs who don't want horse processing in the US, but aren't engaged enough with the issue to know what happens to horses in long-distance shipment.

Interesting post. The only thing I would like to add is that here in Europe Horse Hide, wich I rearly like prsonally,it is not so evaluate. Without doubt it is well considered but, except for Aero Leather, it is treated and tailored in considerably thick, but also exceptionally souple way (both this jacket are tailored by italians crafters and are extremely soft but havvy) [URL=" [/URL]



way more softer than my Cafe Racero Aero. But it is also a common statment than else if horse hide is a very strong leather and mould exceptionally well on body, any horses has the elstic propperties of steers and cows, wich by natures, tent to become slim and fatt depending on what and how they eats. And they transmitt this heritage at their's leather.

Its more then just lobbying at this point since 2007 the three horse abattoirs in the us have been shut down. It is a game of lobby vs economics. The anti horse pet vegan people go after the economics..trying to increase costs to shut down the industry...problem is when you attack the economics of an industry it either goes underground or in this case to unregulated jurisdictions like Mexico where they dont give a damn about u.s. vegan pet owners. Also the anti horse lobby has alligned themselves with the "organic" food lobby and now try to claim the horse meat is toxic to try and stop exports to europe where they eat it. They claim all the horses are anobolically injected race horses. Essentially they have made it worse for the horses. Owners abandon them..starve them, self euthanize them. They are wasted, transported badly and cheaply, slaughtered in unregulated plants or with cheap cow equipment and rather then fixing the problem by regulating the industry they have moved it offshore to Mexico where a baseball bat is a good killing tool. In Europe many of the animals are well treated and well cared for until the end of their lives where they enter the food an byproduct chain. It is sensible and a good overall system for taking care of animals and using resources wisely. Much of the leather that I buy comes from Japan via europe, and Italy via France. In the end the lobby group has hurt horses more then helped but their is no convincing them because they are vegans.

www.himelbros.com

Fletch said:

It's been my conviction for quite awhile now that US anti-horse-processing laws have very little to do with animal welfare and much more to do with animal rights - ie, a human conceit held by ideologues who don't care about cruelty to animals nearly as much as they do about humans "using" them at all.

They're smart enough to know this won't sell, so they've gotten good at lobbying well-meaning animal lovers by stressing the welfare angle and passing over their rights aims. This obviously helped get them a plurality of NIMBYs who don't want horse processing in the US, but aren't engaged enough with the issue to know what happens to horses in long-distance shipment.

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Excellent input, Himel. I'm familiar with your blog and seen the great-looking jackets you've made. Interestingly, I also ended up picking up a Jacket on eBay that I had seen on your blog!

Anyway, I live in Seattle and around ten years ago I was dating a girl in Portland, so I stopped into Langlitz from time to time and firstly, their customer service is beyond pleasant and professional; the first time I stopped by, Dave himself immediately asked me if I wanted to come in and look around (after admitting I did not have the means to make a purchase) even to the back to check out their collection of vintage Langlitz pieces.*
As far as the jackets not having grain or 'character', this is absolutely true. In fact, it is intentional. Though the Cascade posted previously has character, I make a distinction between wear and grain. Jackets with grain have that character from the get-go and it has a different look than wrinkles and wear created by the user (though I appreciate both). Langlitz specifically avoids hides with grain, scars and inconsistencies in general, in the interest of maintaining a consistent level of weight and strength throughout the entire jacket. The point is utter function; any form that comes as a result is merely a bonus - and ultimately, this is the very reason Langlitz stopped using HH for so long. The cost of buying hides they would only end up using parts of was extremely costly.*
Personally, I like grain, because I don't ever see myself in a situation where a grainless, blemishless jacket is going to noticeably serve me better than a grainy one.*
I also noticed that their hides are soft and have a sort of dull plastic shine that I find unappealing - but again, ultimately cosmetic.

As a side note, finish on leather has been the biggest annoyance of modern leather for me. I loathe that flat, plastic sheen that so many pieces have. Every Schott HH (Legendary USA, etc) jacket now, which I believe is from an Italian tannery, is really soft and has this horribly high-gloss sheen; it looks almost like vinyl.*
It's odd because I will randomly find a new leather article of clothing from some no-name company, that looks and feels amazing. And as much as I've read and asked about leather tanning and dying processes, I still can't tell what is making the difference.*

...and I have no* idea where* all the *stars* came from**.

because I am a diplomat I will try to avoid slagging tanneries....Dave is a great guy...his biker jackets need to be smooth...grain can be raised by milling (tumbling) the leather or eliminated by hot pressing....flaws can be elminated as well. Its a complex process..strength and authenticity often have to due with tannage...and shrinkage...again another story. I work with as authentic as I can get hides...Japan and Italy...the cheaper stuff often from Italy and the USA (wont say who) are smooth with the plastic looking pigment finishes...its all in the little bits and details eh....Im guessing you bought that cool cop jacket with the ammo pocket from the 1940s

himelator said:

... The anti horse pet vegan people go after the economics..trying to increase costs to shut down the industry...problem is when you attack the economics of an industry it either goes underground or in this case to unregulated jurisdictions like Mexico where they dont give a damn about u.s. vegan pet owners. Also the anti horse lobby has alligned themselves with the "organic" food lobby and now try to claim the horse meat is toxic to try and stop exports to europe where they eat it. They claim all the horses are anobolically injected race horses. ...
www.himelbros.com

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See this site http://www.itgganadero.com/itg/portal/seccion.asp?S=3&N=78&P=17 (in spanish) about recovering old horse breeds from risk of extinction, and also recovering local economy based on farming in rural areas in northern Spain. Eating horse means breeding horses, mares are essentially mothers, stallions, ...well you know what, and foals go to the table. France used to be an important consumer of horse meat, Spain not as much, Britain never! (they build an Empire on horseback).
That means also horsehide to the market and those horses are very well cared after, nothing to do with cruelty.

I think there is a new law, that prohibits slaughtering of horses in the US, so the abbatoir have to drive the horse across the Mexican or Canadian border, kill them abroad and make raw hide, then send back to US tanneries to tan, or, to send to other countries to tan. Other than Horween, does anyone know of other tanneries that offer horse on the regular basis?

If you talk to Langlitz they will give you a pretty good explanation as to why no horse. They were still offering some in very limited quantities to Japan, at a horrendous upcharge. They had trouble sourcing continually high quality, consistent hides. They also believe that goat has better abrasion resistance, is more waterproof, and drapes and wears better than horse. Basically they think goat is more suitable for MC jackets than horse.

There are lots of people who prefer goat to other leathers for those reasons. I think horse often looks better if you like a warm and textured finish. I'm ambivalent on that point.

Seb Lucas said:

There are lots of people who prefer goat to other leathers for those reasons. I think horse often looks better if you like a warm and textured finish. I'mw ambivalent on that point.

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I was a lunatic for horse hide even though I had never handled or seen it. Simply through this site, I felt I needed horse. I've had a couple of horse jackets now, and they are great. Having said that, I love the feel and texture of the Langlitz goat. It wears super easy from the start, and knowing it's tough as hell, and goes ok in the rain, makes me very happy indeed.

Bunyip said:

I was a lunatic for horse hide even though I had never handled or seen it. Simply through this site, I felt I needed horse. I've had a couple of horse jackets now, and they are great. Having said that, I love the feel and texture of the Langlitz goat. It wears super easy from the start, and knowing it's tough as hell, and goes ok in the rain, makes me very happy indeed.

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Horse definitely got a lot of press over these forums, mostly attributed to Aero's FQHH jackets I think. Had it be a different universe where Horween specialized in cow, and Aero used mostly cow, or whatever animal, that animal would also be hyped up. Having said so, the intrinsic character of the hide (or the hide through a particular tanning process) does speak for itself, regardless of the press, this is just a fact for things that's to do with our senses and aesthetics.

A follow up comment on the horsehide craze: it is historically accurate. The US had a lot of horses & many 30-50s makers use horse, whatever the style. But, also true is goat & cow were equally used... so it could be attributed to the fact that neither goat nor cow got rarer nowadays.


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Langlitz will offer horse but it is a $1200 upcharge so not really worth it unless you have the cash to burn. You could almost get 2 Langlitz jackets from them for the price of just one done in horse hide.

I have a sample of the horse and it is nice but not nice enough for me to cough up an extra $1200 for it. I'm not a goat fan really (unless it is on a plate with curry sauce) so I think my next Langlitz will be in their lighter cow hide.