Borsalino Quality

Daniele Tanto · Feb 10, 2018

ptjoe said:
I want to buy a new Borsalino, either the Como or the Classic, which is less expensive.
From what I've been reading on Borsalino it sounds like I should stay away from them?
Are they made of rabbit felt or wool?

The best for you is to visit the lounger member Besdor site http://www.bencrafthats.com/ if you live in USA
You will have all the assistance you need to have a clear reply
Or send me a PM if you leave in Europe....
and please read all the various materials posted here under the Borsalino Brotherhood thread, you will have some clear explanations

Steinbockhase · Aug 15, 2018

What about Borsalino's own quality classifications; they don't have that many to my knowledge.
I have some vintage Borsalinos, some marked "Qualita Superiore" and others "Qualita Extra Superiore".
Is my assuption that "Extra Superiore" is usually 100% beaver correct?

Daniele Tanto · Aug 16, 2018

Steinbockhase said:
What about Borsalino's own quality classifications; they don't have that many to my knowledge.
I have some vintage Borsalinos, some marked "Qualita Superiore" and others "Qualita Extra Superiore".
Is my assuption that "Extra Superiore" is usually 100% beaver correct?

The classifications of quality of the Borsalino do not indicate absolutely there is of the beaver inside the felt. Like all European hats and felts producers, the beaver has always been an "exotic animal" because it was and is an animal that does live in Europe, therefore in the tradition of the production of felt it is not used.
Blends of various fur coats have been used and used until now for the production of felt. When Borsalino uses "special" furs, this is clearly indicated in the hat. Today there are these special mixtures: "Beaver", "Guanaco", "Vicuna" and some special edition with silk inside the felt. Keep in mind that the main felt in Europe was made of basic wool and some addition of fur for top-class hats, then the rabbit and other fur animals formed the backbone of the production with, in some cases, at least here in Italy, a wool base. The felt is defined as "Misto". Probably some very expensive antique Borsalino hats used some part of beaver. Recognized, however, that Borsalino, Barbisio, Panizza, the hat-makers from Monza have prided themselves on having used various mixtures for their felt, as well as those operating in Germany and central Europe.
The hat you want to buy is not a bowler, personal opinion, but a "Lobbia"
If you need more, let me know

Steinbockhase · Aug 16, 2018

Daniele Tanto said:
The classifications of quality of the Borsalino do not indicate absolutely there is of the beaver inside the felt. Like all European hats and felts producers, the beaver has always been an "exotic animal" because it was and is an animal that does live in Europe, therefore in the tradition of the production of felt it is not used.
Blends of various fur coats have been used and used until now for the production of felt. When Borsalino uses "special" furs, this is clearly indicated in the hat. Today there are these special mixtures: "Beaver", "Guanaco", "Vicuna" and some special edition with silk inside the felt. Keep in mind that the main felt in Europe was made of basic wool and some addition of fur for top-class hats, then the rabbit and other fur animals formed the backbone of the production with, in some cases, at least here in Italy, a wool base. The felt is defined as "Misto". Probably some very expensive antique Borsalino hats used some part of beaver. Recognized, however, that Borsalino, Barbisio, Panizza, the hat-makers from Monza have prided themselves on having used various mixtures for their felt, as well as those operating in Germany and central Europe.
The hat you want to buy is not a bowler, personal opinion, but a "Lobbia"
If you need more, let me know

Thank you Daniele, your expertise is very much appreciated.
Okay, so beaver fur felts are actually very rare with vintage European hat productions. Is it then correct to say that the Borsolino classifications (Superiore, Extra Superiore, Extra-Extra Superiore, Speciale) have more to do with the percentage, quality and finisch of the rabbit/hare fur felt?
Is a "Lobbia" more like a "Homburg" without the center dent?

I will start posting details of my Borsalino collection soon (looking for a makro-lens for high quality close-up photos).

Daniele Tanto · Aug 16, 2018

Steinbockhase said:
Thank you Daniele, your expertise is very much appreciated.
Okay, so beaver fur felts are actually very rare with vintage European hat productions. Is it then correct to say that the Borsolino classifications (Superiore, Extra Superiore, Extra-Extra Superiore, Speciale) have more to do with the percentage, quality and finisch of the rabbit/hare fur felt?
Is a "Lobbia" more like a "Homburg" without the center dent?

Yes, the Borsalino classifications have their origins in the quality of felt and its components, but over the years they have become a "bizarre" market strategy in which often felts with little apparent quality, instead, have fantastic characteristics. The classifications, I think has become at some point in the history of Borsalino, only some marketing tools.
Lobbia is the Italian name for an homburg, so I belive that the black one you are following will have the soft crown that you can shape as you want.

Naphtali · Aug 4, 2019

I am aware of hat fur felt quality being identified with "Xs." While this may have originated with Stetson and, apparently, has metamorphosed to advertising hyperbole, it's not part of my query.

Borsalino fedoras are the only non-outdoor hats I own. And I bought them more than 15 years ago from the Fedoralounge's Classifieds before I knew anything more than I look absurd in a western hat.

My favorite elderly Borsalino is extremely worn. Since I do not know whether it is worthwhile trying to have it refurbished, I've begun watching for older previously owned Borsalinos. I noticed that Borsalino describes [what I think are] grades of fur felt in each of their hats. The maybe grade evaluations are in Italian. And may be advertising hyperbole.

Does Borsalino include fur felt quality identification among their "superiore" verbiage? If the identifications are useful, what does each mean - that is, what is the quality order? If identifications are real, how valuable will my understanding what is better or worse in Borsaliino's hat quality when my interest is older hats?

moehawk · Aug 4, 2019

I can't answer the part about the quality designations.
But the words "favorite elderly Borsalino" would automatically make it worth a refurb in my opinion.

Daniele Tanto · Aug 4, 2019

Naphtali said:
My favorite elderly Borsalino is extremely worn. Since I do not know whether it is worthwhile trying to have it refurbished, I've begun watching for older previously owned Borsalinos. I noticed that Borsalino describes [what I think are] grades of fur felt in each of their hats. The maybe grade evaluations are in Italian. And may be advertising hyperbole.

Does Borsalino include fur felt quality identification among their "superiore" verbiage? If the identifications are useful, what does each mean - that is, what is the quality order? If identifications are real, how valuable will my understanding what is better or worse in Borsaliino's hat quality when my interest is older hats?

The evaluations made by Borsalino on the quality of the felt are in Italian language for most of the hats produced, for the American market devices have been used in the past, such as XXX, to enter into the assessments made by American hat manufacturers and give a "guide" to American buyers.
Assessments in Italian had their raison d'être until the Second World War, then they became inscrutable evaluations.
In reality it is difficult to understand the quality of Borsalino felt from their evaluations especially in the last 50 or 60 years. Therefore hats marked "Qualità Extra Extra Superiore" or "Qualità Suprema" can be, to the touch and to the view, less interesting than one of "Qualità Superiore" which for years has been the lowest rating.
Renewing a Borsalino can be interesting only starting from the conditions of what you have in hand, you have to take into account Borsalino has produced millions of hats and many are on the used market.
Personally I am very cautious in renewing the Borsalino because often it is possible to find better opportunities on the used market.
By the way you can add a photo of the interior and exterior of your favorite and I'll tell you my opinion.

mayserwegener · Aug 4, 2019

Daniele Tanto said:
The evaluations made by Borsalino on the quality of the felt are in Italian language for most of the hats produced, for the American market devices have been used in the past, such as XXX, to enter into the assessments made by American hat manufacturers and give a "guide" to American buyers.
Assessments in Italian had their raison d'être until the Second World War, then they became inscrutable evaluations.
In reality it is difficult to understand the quality of Borsalino felt from their evaluations especially in the last 50 or 60 years. Therefore hats marked "Qualità Extra Extra Superiore" or "Qualità Suprema" can be, to the touch and to the view, less interesting than one of "Qualità Superiore" which for years has been the lowest rating.
Renewing a Borsalino can be interesting only starting from the conditions of what you have in hand, you have to take into account Borsalino has produced millions of hats and many are on the used market.
Personally I am very cautious in renewing the Borsalino because often it is possible to find better opportunities on the used market.
By the way you can add a photo of the interior and exterior of your favorite and I'll tell you my opinion.

Side Note regarding a specific market.
Regarding old factory (up to close) German Market Borsalinos I have only encountered "Qualità Superiore" Soft Felts. This applies to some of the highest quality Borsalinos Soft Felts (any market). For example this 1929 Echter Borsalino "Qualità Superiore".

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...no-german-market/?do=findComment&comment=1198

I don't believe I have come across any Echter Borsalino Stiff Felts which is strange now that I think about.

steur · Aug 6, 2019

Naphtali said:
I am aware of hat fur felt quality being identified with "Xs." While this may have originated with Stetson and, apparently, has metamorphosed to advertising hyperbole, it's not part of my query.

Borsalino fedoras are the only non-outdoor hats I own. And I bought them more than 15 years ago from the Fedoralounge's Classifieds before I knew anything more than I look absurd in a western hat.

My favorite elderly Borsalino is extremely worn. Since I do not know whether it is worthwhile trying to have it refurbished, I've begun watching for older previously owned Borsalinos. I noticed that Borsalino describes [what I think are] grades of fur felt in each of their hats. The maybe grade evaluations are in Italian. And may be advertising hyperbole.

Does Borsalino include fur felt quality identification among their "superiore" verbiage? If the identifications are useful, what does each mean - that is, what is the quality order? If identifications are real, how valuable will my understanding what is better or worse in Borsaliino's hat quality when my interest is older hats?

moehawk said:
I can't answer the part about the quality designations.
But the words "favorite elderly Borsalino" would automatically make it worth a refurb in my opinion.

I second that. Borsalino has had quite a few quality designations over its long history. These are the ones we know of:
qualitá speciale
qualitá extra extra superiore
qualitá extra superiore
qualitá superiore
qualitá finissima
qualitá extra finissima
qualitá suprema
qualitá massima
qualitá augusta (on sweatband)
qualitá superlativa
qualitá victoria
We don't know much more than that these were used on the liner or sometimes on the sweatband. There's precious little information however on what they mean exactly in regards to the felt. And they could have meant different things in different era's. So, if it is your favourite hat, why not give it a refurb? It's what they used to do.

Naphtali · Sep 4, 2019

Okay, I've stumbled into a partial answer to my question, and that answer makes my follow-up more important for me. Why is this hat my favorite? I have four Borsalinos and don't particularly appreciate one of them. Why? Wandering the auctions of eBay Borsalino fedoras, I noticed that I didn't favor brims with plain edges, stitched edges folded over or under, or edges with fabric covering. I like the ones with kind've a lumped or formed edging. In one of these auctions' descriptions, that edging was called "Cavanagh." An Internet Bing search identified Cavanagh brims [edges] and their apparent scarcity on fedoras. . . . Three of my Borsalinos, including my favorite have Cavanagh brims. The one I can live without has a fabric edge.

So when I bought the hats because I liked them and had read of Borsalino's reputation here on the Lounge, neither I nor the seller recognized that Cavanagh brims were scarce, required substantial hand labor, and would therefore be used on Borsalino's higher quality hats. Since Cavanagh brims have been available from several fedora brands and models, it's reasonable to deduce that all of those fedoras will also be among higher quality tiers.

So now identifying and contacting a hat restoring facility or person if one-man shop, becomes mandatory. I want to restore my Borsalinos, regardless of their present condition, to as close to new as can occur.
***
Note: I had misspelled "Cavanagh" every use. I was notified of the incorrect spelling by jlee562 and have corrected it in RED.

steur said:
I second that. Borsalino has had quite a few quality designations over its long history. These are the ones we know of:
qualitá speciale
qualitá extra extra superiore
qualitá extra superiore
qualitá superiore
qualitá finissima
qualitá extra finissima
qualitá suprema
qualitá massima
qualitá augusta (on sweatband)
qualitá superlativa
qualitá victoria
We don't know much more than that these were used on the liner or sometimes on the sweatband. There's precious little information however on what they mean exactly in regards to the felt. And they could have meant different things in different era's. So, if it is your favourite hat, why not give it a refurb? It's what they used to do.

jlee562 · Sep 4, 2019

Pedant note, it's Cavanagh.

deadlyhandsome · Sep 5, 2019

jlee562 said:
Pedant note, it's Cavanagh.

I got a great deal on a hat because the seller listed it with the “u” and most interested parties never saw it. I’ve added a few Borsolinos (sic) to my stable too along with “100% wool” 3X Beaver hats!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Naphtali · Sep 5, 2019

jlee562 said:
Pedant note, it's Cavanagh.

Oops. You are right, and I am . . . er . . . uh . . . less than right.
Lance
***
So now identifying and contacting a hat restoring facility or person if one-man shop, becomes mandatory. I want to restore my Borsalinos, regardless of their present condition, to as close to new as can occur.

Steinbockhase · Sep 5, 2019

Naphtali said:
Okay, I've stumbled into a partial answer to my question, and that answer makes my follow-up more important for me. Why is this hat my favorite? I have four Borsalinos and don't particularly appreciate one of them. Why? Wandering the auctions of eBay Borsalino fedoras, I noticed that I didn't favor brims with plain edges, stitched edges folded over or under, or edges with fabric covering. I like the ones with kind've a lumped or formed edging. In one of these auctions' descriptions, that edging was called "Cavanagh." An Internet Bing search identified Cavanagh brims [edges] and their apparent scarcity on fedoras. . . . Three of my Borsalinos, including my favorite have Cavanagh brims. The one I can live without has a fabric edge.

So when I bought the hats because I liked them and had read of Borsalino's reputation here on the Lounge, neither I nor the seller recognized that Cavanagh brims were scarce, required substantial hand labor, and would therefore be used on Borsalino's higher quality hats. Since Cavanagh brims have been available from several fedora brands and models, it's reasonable to deduce that all of those fedoras will also be among higher quality tiers.

So now identifying and contacting a hat restoring facility or person if one-man shop, becomes mandatory. I want to restore my Borsalinos, regardless of their present condition, to as close to new as can occur.
***
Note: I had misspelled "Cavanagh" every use. I was notified of the incorrect spelling by jlee562 and have corrected it in RED.

Concerning brim treatment:
I guess a simple raw cut edge requires the least effort for the hatter.
But I'm not so sure that a bonded edge (fabric), welted edge or Cavanagh edge will guarantee an over-all better quality of the hat.
In the end it's more a matter of taste.
I personally favor fabric bonded edges in matching or contrast colors to the felt.

ptjoe · Feb 17, 2020

Steinbockhase said:
Concerning brim treatment:
I guess a simple raw cut edge requires the least effort for the hatter.
But I'm not so sure that a bonded edge (fabric), welted edge or Cavanagh edge will guarantee an over-all better quality of the hat.
In the end it's more a matter of taste.
I personally favor fabric bonded edges in matching or contrast colors to the felt.

Just purchased a Borsalino Diamante Avgusta 25 from ebay.
Charcoal gray and the felt is a little longer.Looks great with a 17/8 brim and a wide ribbon.
Inside the crown it says antica casa and Diamante 25 on the sweatband.
It has an underwelt brim cannot even notice any stitching, beautifully done.
When I get it I'll post some pictures

DaveProc · Apr 23, 2021

Borsalino Ludoita Qualita Extra Superiore Crema. Just arrived. Filthiest hat I have ever purchased. Steam and brush did nothing.

belfastboy · Apr 23, 2021

DaveProc said:
Just arrived. Filthiest hat I have ever purchased. Steam and brush did nothing.
View attachment 329099 View attachment 329100 View attachment 329101 View attachment 329102 View attachment 329103 View attachment 329104 View attachment 329105 View attachment 329106 View attachment 329107

Well, this should keep you busy for a few days.

DaveProc · Apr 23, 2021

belfastboy said:
Well, this should keep you busy for a few days.

Yep.Lol

belfastboy · Apr 23, 2021

DaveProc said:
Yep.Lol

I always like projects like this as they keep me busy for days and I forget to go shopping for other hats......in the end they save me money!

Borsalino Quality

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