Would California's AB44 ban fur felt hats?

jlee562 · Sep 6, 2019

SF is currently in the process of building a new homeless navigation center. Construction got held up because some NIMBYS didn't want it near the waterfront and their expensive condos. Berkeley is expected to approve $60mil in bonds for a new homeless and veteran housing complex and are looking to build safe parking areas for folks living in RVs.

But this isn't really about what state and local governments are or are not doing, right?

Single use plastics are a non-trivial issue. Microplastics are polluting otherwise pristine arctic ice; building up in the deepest parts of the ocean in the Mariana trench; and accumulating so much along the California coast that whatever species inherits the earth from humans will be able to mark the start of a new geologic era based on accumulated plastic debris. Not even to mention the Pacific garbage patch...

Hurricane Jack · Sep 6, 2019

jlee562 said:
But this isn't really about what state and local governments are or are not doing, right?

Single use plastics are a non-trivial issue. Microplastics are polluting otherwise pristine arctic ice; building up in the deepest parts of the ocean in the Mariana trench; and accumulating so much along the California coast that whatever species inherits the earth from humans will be able to mark the start of a new geologic era based on accumulated plastic debris. Not even to mention the Pacific garbage patch...

I don't think anyone would disagree with this Jared. But I think the just of opinions expressed is that CA forbidding plastic straws alone does little good until the countries of the Pacific Rim do their part & clean up their plastics that come our way & end up here. Most of those countries are not likely to volunteer any effort to do that until their foreign aid is impacted. And while we might applaud CA's efforts by eliminating plastic straws, CA might be more successful in exerting those efforts towards their other problems.

jlee562 · Sep 7, 2019

Hurricane Jack said:
I don't think anyone would disagree with this Jared. But I think the just of opinions expressed is that CA forbidding plastic straws alone does little good until the countries of the Pacific Rim do their part & clean up their plastics that come our way & end up here. Most of those countries are not likely to volunteer any effort to do that until their foreign aid is impacted. And while we might applaud CA's efforts by eliminating plastic straws, CA might be more successful in exerting those efforts towards their other problems.

Absolutely. Even advocates for further action on plastic would agree to the sentiment that the straw legislation is 'low hanging fruit' and that its falls far short of systemic action. But like I said earlier, these are not mutually exclusive problems. It's not as if all other items on the agenda grind to a halt for the fur or straw bans.

I get it, people like to poke fun at California...probably as much as we like to poke fun at Texas, lol. But the flip side of the coin is that being the most populous state with the largest economy in the union, California's consumer preferences are also non-trivial. There are any number of think pieces on the "as California goes, so goes the nation" adage but the clearest indication of this currently is the major automakers dealing directly with California for emissions standards. That's really the reason laws like this get passed...that and so politicians can pretend they did something when they really didn't do much.

Back on topic, the fur sale ban is still in committee, commercial fur trapping was outlawed. Though we're still trying to get rid of the Nutria. If only those pelts could be processed somewhere for hats!

AbbaDatDeHat · Sep 7, 2019

^^^^what about the cow?
Are they trying to outlaw the cow too?
Or goats, pugs, grass??
Personally, if i was a Californian, i’d really worry about where are my kids and grandkids gonna get their water??
B

deadlyhandsome · Sep 7, 2019

AbbaDatDeHat said:
^^^^what about the cow?
Are they trying to outlaw the cow too?
Or goats, pugs, grass??
Personally, if i was a Californian, i’d really worry about where are my kids and grandkids gonna get their water??
B

Desalination must be in our future. It requires a lot of energy, and that needs to be addressed too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

deadlyhandsome · Sep 7, 2019

jlee562 said:
Absolutely. Even advocates for further action on plastic would agree to the sentiment that the straw legislation is 'low hanging fruit' and that its falls far short of systemic action. But like I said earlier, these are not mutually exclusive problems. It's not as if all other items on the agenda grind to a halt for the fur or straw bans.

I get it, people like to poke fun at California...probably as much as we like to poke fun at Texas, lol. But the flip side of the coin is that being the most populous state with the largest economy in the union, California's consumer preferences are also non-trivial. There are any number of think pieces on the "as California goes, so goes the nation" adage but the clearest indication of this currently is the major automakers dealing directly with California for emissions standards. That's really the reason laws like this get passed...that and so politicians can pretend they did something when they really didn't do much.

Back on topic, the fur sale ban is still in committee, commercial fur trapping was outlawed. Though we're still trying to get rid of the Nutria. If only those pelts could be processed somewhere for hats!

We can all only do what we can do...a truism if ever there was one

We all need to individually do what we can to be good stewards of the earth. The fact that others might not immediately follow suit doesn’t relieve us of the responsibility to act once we know what should be done.

To be honest, I don’t know how to feel about the proposed ban. I love fur felt hats, but I’m generally against modern fur production practices.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

jlee562 · Sep 7, 2019

deadlyhandsome said:
We can all only do what we can do...a truism if ever there was one
We all need to individually do what we can to be good stewards of the earth. The fact that others might not immediately follow suit doesn’t relieve us of the responsibility to act once we know what should be done.

To be honest, I don’t know how to feel about the proposed ban. I love fur felt hats, but I’m generally against modern fur production practices.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Well, the real target of the ban is fur clothing ala mink and fox tails. There was a vintage store here in the Haight that was allegedly selling furs out of a secret back room and they got raided. I mentioned earlier that I wrote the Supervisor that authored the SF city ban. Usually I assume those just go into the ether and maybe result in a hash mark on some intern's notes. But she actually took the time to have someone look into it and she wrote back "if the fur is not attached to the skin, it is not covered under the legislation."

So that's that as far as San Francisco goes, fur felt hats not banned, but good luck finding a hat shop!

As to ethical fur, I don't know if that's an oxymoron or not, that's above my pay grade. I do think we should act to not inflict undue cruelty to animals we eat or otherwise use for 'animal byproducts.' I see that Scotland has granted the beaver protected status earlier this year and the Netherlands on the other hand does an annual cull. Hopefully the ones that are culled are used for pelts and not just discarded. I don't know what's happening to California's nutria, but suspect we won't get hats from them. Maybe it's an economic thing, but as long as we're culling the things anyway, why not take the pelts.

jonesy86 · Sep 7, 2019

T Jones said:
You'd think that California's elected office holders would be more concerned about having serious discussions on how to deal with their homeless crisis rather than debating about banning fur products and plastic straws.

I am going to wear a fur hat tomorrow to volunteer to help clean up all the plastic that washes up on a local beach.

Lean'n'mean · Sep 7, 2019

It would be a tragedy for California if Nick Fouquet was forced to change state.

Rmccamey · Sep 7, 2019

Jonsey, I believe you speak in jest but you have hit on a valid point, and one I try to make often. Rather than penalize us for use of some product with raids, fines, bans, regulations, taxes, penalties, inspections, audits, enforcement offices and personnel, etc., why don't local, state, and the national governments put much more effort into providing incentives for us to use the lower impact alternatives in the form of personal income tax credits for use of the preferred product, eliminating the sales tax on the preferred products, incentives or support to the manufacturers so that the preferred product can be produced as the lower cost alternative, etc? IMHO, far, far too often do governments penalize us for option A when they could get much better results by motivating us toward option B. Rather than penalize us for using plastic straws, why don't they reward us for using the better alternative!

Hurricane Jack said:
I don't think anyone would disagree with this Jared. But I think the just of opinions expressed is that CA forbidding plastic straws alone does little good until the countries of the Pacific Rim do their part & clean up their plastics that come our way & end up here. Most of those countries are not likely to volunteer any effort to do that until their foreign aid is impacted. And while we might applaud CA's efforts by eliminating plastic straws, CA might be more successful in exerting those efforts towards their other problems.

jonesy86 said:
I am going to wear a fur hat tomorrow to volunteer to help clean up all the plastic that washes up on a local beach.

Hurricane Jack · Sep 7, 2019

jlee562 said:
I get it, people like to poke fun at California...probably as much as we like to poke fun at Texas, lol. But the flip side of the coin is that being the most populous state with the largest economy in the union, California's consumer preferences are also non-trivial. There are any number of think pieces on the "as California goes, so goes the nation"...

CA gets poked fun at when they try (but failed) to pass a law making it illegal to ride a bicycle & text message at the same time, for both rider & pedestrian safety. Who would enforce such a law? Life is full of such inherent dangers.

As was pointed out during talk of succession after the election of "W" as President I'm aware that an independent California would have a GNP larger than France & several other countries. That carries some weight. This "new country" might have survived for a time.

Keep in mind also that it was reaffirmed during talk of the succession of Texas after the "Hawaiian" was elected President that Texas has the right to divide itself into up to 5 states, a privilege granted them when the Republic of Texas was readmitted to the union in 1845. Four new states would be entitled to new electoral votes. Just think what 5 like-minded states (Texas) could do with more electoral votes. The states like CA that are big voting block states now would be worried.

No state has the right to succeed without the vote of congress.

Hurricane Jack · Sep 7, 2019

AbbaDatDeHat said:
^^^^what about the cow?

It's that deadly methane gas they produce, you know. When a suggestion was made recently to outlaw cows (both beef & dairy) the "informed" politician was unaware that the US only produces 9% of the world's beef for food. Again and IF there is a problem, without the cooperation of the world countries...

Bamaboots · Sep 7, 2019

jlee562 said:
but as long as we're culling the things anyway, why not take the pelts.

That's the real oxymoron, jared.

Lean'n'mean · Sep 7, 2019

Hurricane Jack said:
As was pointed out during talk of succession after the election of "W" as President I'm aware that an independent California would have a GNP larger than France & several other countries. That carries some weight. This "new country" might have survived for a time.

Yeah, it is said that California would be the world's 5th largest economy should it become independant but it wouldn't last long without the tens of billions of dollars poured in by Saudi Arabia, notably in Silicon Valley & the hi-tech industries.

Frunobulax · Sep 7, 2019

Hurricane Jack said:
I don't think anyone would disagree with this Jared...

I will say only this, Jack, as I'm not going to get into a political debate: Plenty of people would disagree with this, and for good reason. Not that microplastics exist, but whether they exist in sufficient quantity in the environment to be a significant concern; that the epidemiological research into microplastics is currently inconclusive; and that many advocates of the "crisis" hyperbolize it's current and potential impact.

Whether tinkering around the edges by banning plastic straws is an effective response or just a power move seeking control is another debate, as well.

1961MJS · Sep 7, 2019

Wow, wait until the beavers in Cali eat someone's $2K a piece trees and flood a golf course. We had a big argument in a subdivision in Wichita 10 years ago. The beavers flooded a few yards after eating say $10K in one guy's trees. I think they finally got them trapped. We have the same problem in Norman OK, but were allowed to solve the problem.

On Nutria's, they make GREAT hat felt and in Louisiana (at least a few years ago), the SWAT Teams took out silenced .22's and practiced on them on the waterways.

No reason to be cruel, but no sense wasting resources either.

Later

alexanderwestwood · Sep 7, 2019

AB44 doesn’t ban fur felt hats because “fur” as defined in the bill is limited to furs attached to an animal skin.

jonesy86 · Sep 7, 2019

Rmccamey said:
Jonsey, I believe you speak in jest but you have hit on a valid point, and one I try to make often. Rather than penalize us for use of some product with raids, fines, bans, regulations, taxes, penalties, inspections, audits, enforcement offices and personnel, etc., why don't local, state, and the national governments put much more effort into providing incentives for us to use the lower impact alternatives in the form of personal income tax credits for use of the preferred product, eliminating the sales tax on the preferred products, incentives or support to the manufacturers so that the preferred product can be produced as the lower cost alternative, etc? IMHO, far, far too often do governments penalize us for option A when they could get much better results by motivating us toward option B. Rather than penalize us for using plastic straws, why don't they reward us for using the better alternative!

Out on the beach this morning picking up plastic with The Friends of Kalamani and Lydgate Park, an organization supported by both the public and private sector.

https://kamalanius.wordpress.com/

No small animals were harmed in the production of this clean up. Now my hat...well that’s another story.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jlee562 · Sep 8, 2019

jonesy86 said:
Out on the beach this morning picking up plastic with The Friends of Kalamani and Lydgate Park, an organization supported by both the public and private sector.

https://kamalanius.wordpress.com/

No small animals were harmed in the production of this clean up. Now my hat...well that’s another story.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Japanese whippet is fantastic!

Rmccamey · Sep 8, 2019

You really can look sharp and work too! Nice one, Jonesy!

Would California's AB44 ban fur felt hats?

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