Borsalino size question

Rev Tom · Dec 13, 2008

If the tag in a vintage Borsalino reads "7-1-4", is that a 7 1/4 or what? Thanks.

gtdean48 · Dec 13, 2008

I'd think so Rev Tom but will let officianados here weigh in. That 7 1/2 is English, not US. My Borso bought in the 80's has 7 1/2 7 61. US size would be a 7 5/8. I have 2 Akubras. One a 62 & other is a 60. I've stretched & worn the 60 so it fits just right (my hunting Riverina) It is a US size 7 1/2. The other is a hat my mother brought back from touring Down Under & it is more of a display piece on the hall tree (never like the bash but it's a gift!). It is a 62 or US 7 3/4 & fits front & back but not side to side = I'm definitely a long oval, if not extra long oval, forceps delivery? ;-) gtd

Dewhurst · Dec 14, 2008

I believe the Borsalino 7 1/4 would be equivalent to a 7 3/8 US. I have a Jonathan Richard flat cap that is a 60, which is an english 7 3/8, which is an US 7 1/2. That is what the tag claims anyway, I have my doubts.

mineral · Dec 14, 2008

Rev Tom said:
If the tag in a vintage Borsalino reads "7-1-4", is that a 7 1/4 or what? Thanks.

I don't think your question can be answered without more information. For instance, what else is written on the leather band and the inner lining? Is it a hat made for shops in America (e.g. "Marshall Field and Company" on the band)? If it is, then the "7 1/4" is the "7 1/4" you are familiar with. Alternatively, if it is a hat for shops in Europe (e.g. "Luzzi, Roma" on the band), then the above statement might (or might not be) valid.

kaosharper1 · Dec 14, 2008

I've wondered about this too. I just bought a vintage Borsalino that looks like it dates from the 1950s or maybe early 60s. It has a cloth size tag, corrugated front to the headband with a sweatcloth under the forehead part, and says "original house" on the sweatband. Five digit serial number starts with 62. The size is marked 7 1/4, but that's all it says with no dashes like above. I'm a 23" head, or usually a 7 3/8 yet this hat fits me perfectly. I thought maybe it was actually British sizing. I've read here that "Original House" means it was made for the US market, but could that have also been used in the UK?

MattJH · Dec 14, 2008

If a Borsalino is manufactured for local sale, it's in the European sizing (i.e. - 7 1/2 is a 61cm, etc.). If a Borsalino is manufactured for export to the USA, it's in the sizing we're all used to. I've seen Borsalinos marked 7 5/8 that were our 7 5/8 and I've seen Borsalinos marked 7 1/2 that were our 7 5/8.

The key is knowing how to tell whether the hat was or wasn't meant for exporting. There's a way, but I forgot what it is. It has something to do with the "Antica Casa" etc. etc. on the sweatband and how it's worded.

I'm sure folks like Dinerman could answer this easily.

XPLSV · Jan 8, 2009

Some Borsalino's will use the Punti sizing system. I picked up a 1952 Borsalino Homburg off OFAS a couple of months back that was advertised as a size 5 1/2. That's about a 7 1/4 US. Although Homburgs are not my favorite style, I was happy with my $26 winning bid and thought I might take some better photos and resell it for future hat purchases. Upon receiving it, I found it to be from 1952 AND it was an "Extra Extra Qualita Superiore."

carouselvic · Jan 8, 2009

Guys the 5 digit numbering does not work for dating vintage Borsalinos. Besdor said that hats they made after about 1975 are coded with a year code.

carter · Jan 8, 2009

Ahhhhhh.....Thanks XPSLV

XPLSV said:
Some Borsalino's will use the Punti sizing system. I picked up a 1952 Borsalino Homburg off OFAS a couple of months back that was advertised as a size 5 1/2. That's about a 7 1/4 US. Although Homburgs are not my favorite style, I was happy with my $26 winning bid and thought I might take some better photos and resell it for future hat purchases. Upon receiving it, I found it to be from 1952 AND it was an "Extra Extra Qualita Superiore."

For those who don't know what the PUNTI sizing system is (I did not), here is some info from The Village Hat Shop website.

"Up until approximately the middle of the 20th Century some hat companies in Italy and England used a hat size scale known as PUNTI. Here is how is worked: The size number is determined by dividing the head circumference in inches by pi + 1 (or 4.145). It is thought that originally the system was designed to indicate the crown height of skull-type hats, and simply evolved into this other system. A PUNTI 5½ is equivalent to a US 7¼ or European 58 cm. Judging by hat size tags alone, Borsalino used the system well into the 20th Century. Wilson and Stafford in the UK also used the PUNTI system."

*edited by Carter to remove stupidity.

mineral · Jan 8, 2009

carter said:
Based on this system, in PUNTI sizing, my 24" head would require a size 5 3/4 (I doubt 5 4/5 is made) or 6.
In US sizing, I wear a 7 5/8.
In European sizing, 61cm.

Carter, far be it for someone as inexperienced with hats as me to warn an expert like you, but if you do wear a 7 5/8 never, ever buy a 6. A 6 is more like a US 7 1/4-7 3/8. You would more likely need a 7 (which, unfortunately for you, would be very very difficult to find

).

The "Punti" sizes you refer to is "French" in the chart posted by Dewhurst. They increment by 1/2's and not by 1/4's.

Dinerman · Jan 9, 2009

carter said:
Mineral, I have purchased exactly one (1) Borsalino with PUNTI sizing and it was indeed too small. Now, just when I think I have figured it out, you tell us there is more than one PUNTI! :eusa_doh:

Is there a simple chart that explains all this so even a simpleton like me can understand?

There's only one punti sizing system, the one in the size chart posted above.

gtdean48 · Jan 9, 2009

Dinerman said:
There's only one punti sizing system, the one in the size chart posted above.

Right.
Carter, if you look at my initial response you see a PUNTI 7 for a 61. You & I are both 7 5/8 US, which is 7 1/2 English. My Borso bought 20 years ago, even tho bought in Texas, does not have the US sizing.
You & I are 7 5/8 US 7 1/2 English 7 PUNTI & 61 cm just like the chart shows. HTH

carter · Jan 9, 2009

It must be the medication

And I completely missed the chart!

Excuse me while I go clean-up one post and delete another. Then I'll shoot the dog. Aaaarrrgh! [huh]

DaveProc · Oct 11, 2019

Good morning, forgive me for hijacking this thread , but I have a Borsalino size question.

I have attached two size labels from a Borsalino size "7", would the 7 be Punti or American 7/12? Any help is appreciated.

milandro · Oct 11, 2019

interesting. If this is a 7 punti it should be a very large 61cm which should be at quite a distance from a 56cm if it were an American size 7. I would say this is a punti size. You don’t have the hat in your possession?
( thank you for reviving this 10 years old thread I am all for it!)

DaveProc · Oct 11, 2019

milandro said:
interesting. If this is a 7 punti it should be a very large 61cm which should be at quite a distance from a 56cm if it were an American size 7. I would say this is a punti size. You don’t have the hat in your possession?
( thank you for reviving this 10 years old thread I am all for it!)

Thank you!! I do not have it in my possession. Someone asked me the question and although I know much more than the person who asked, but much about Borsalino.

milandro · Oct 11, 2019

So maybe the person can actually measure the circumference ( there are, I am sure you know, hat sizers but with a tape measure one gets a reasonable approximation).

jlee562 · Oct 11, 2019

DaveProc said:
View attachment 188875 View attachment 188876
Good morning, forgive me for hijacking this thread , but I have a Borsalino size question.

I have attached two size labels from a Borsalino size "7", would the 7 be Punti or American 7/12? Any help is appreciated.

store imprints? That would be a dead giveaway.

looks like what I had in my U.S. Market Torino.

DaveProc · Oct 11, 2019

jlee562 said:
store imprints? That would be a dead giveaway.

looks like what I had in my U.S. Market Torino.

Yes, just like that. I have just been informed that if it has the US Patent stamp under the Borsalino logo, then it will be a US size instead of Punti.

milandro · Oct 11, 2019

ok, so this is a smallish size

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