BATTER UP!

Fading Fast · Jan 15, 2020

belfastboy said:
I am a conservative by nature and really do believe in the rule of law. However, at the risk of ridicule I hold a different position when it comes to baseball. I think 'cheating' has long been part of the game, part of looking for the edge and to me adds a bit to the allure. This recent Houston transgression brings it into the electronic age but is along the same lines as chewing slippery elm to produce spit, emory board in the back pocket, vaseline on the underside of the cap brim, pine tar up the bat and on the deterrent side of the coin the timeless antidote to signal theft......signalling for the breaking ball down and away and then throwing a fastball up and in. As they used to say..."Spin his hat"....that used to be the proper response to any attempt at gaming the system.

On the one hand Houston came up with a creative strategy but so poorly implemented....banging a garbage can for goodness sake??
Then as I related the story to my wife, a decided non baseball fan,....." yeh, but they still have to hit it! "

I understand your "there's a history of it" view and sincerely get it. The problem is that it really isn't a fair or sustainable model (only made harder in an era of high tech).

To wit, should every team try to cheat the "allowable" amount? And what is that "allowable" amount? And, as noted, what's "allowable" cheating in a digital world?

I think clear rules, clearly enforced is what is needed even if it "changes" the game.

And yes, the banging on the garbage can stood out as a ham-handed implementation strategy (for, as they'd say, the last mile).

Fading Fast · Jan 15, 2020

belfastboy said:
Hasn't cheating been a part of the game for a very long time? Should Gaylord Perry's records now be expunged as he was a serial slobberer of the baseball? I am not sure we can look back on baseball and declare there was a golden age of integrity and honour to the game. In many ways the game used to be much more brutal than today's gentile version. The game is filled with hard men who would bend the rules, knock you down, open up your calf with a metal cleat, tag you in the mouth with a baseball, separate your shoulder at home plate with a takeout slide, emery boards, Vaseline, slippery elm, signals from the runner at second base were all part of the game in bygone years and to me were a wonderful part of the allure of the game. Every era deserves to have their rogues and outliers...….adds character and provides great anecdotes.

I agree, the past is the past. But 2017 isn't too far past to punish. I understand that I am arguing for a change in the "spirit" or realpolitik of the game, but I still believe it is needed. Those past scandals might now have a charming or roguish allure to us today - all part of baseball's "history" or "legend," but I bet those who were cheated out of a season of hard work and integrity would argue otherwise.

LizzieMaine · Jan 15, 2020

I think it's one thing to use what you might call "gamesmanship" to get an edge over the other team, but when it comes to using technology to do it -- whether it's Leo's telescope in the Polo Grounds clubhouse, or Apple Watches or replay monitors --- that's crossing the lines.

What Cora's suspected of doing is like if Durocher brought the telescope with him and set it up in the scoreboard at Wrigley Field. It becomes a concerted pattern of organized cheating that goes beyond simple roguery toward a serious flouting of the basic rules of the game. I think this kind of stuff is going to become even more of a problem if it isn't stopped now, especially with legalized sports gambling becoming more and more common. If something isn't done it's only a matter of time before we have Black Sox: The Next Generation to deal with.

Ralph Branca went to his grave bitter about 1951 after the telescope story was verified -- and it basically ended his lifelong friendship with Mr. Thomson. A stolen pennant isn't very much fun for the ones it's stolen from.

belfastboy · Jan 15, 2020

LizzieMaine said:
Time to fire up the Hot Stove. if the Sox lose Mookie Betts, my mother will personally go down to Boston and throw this Chaim Bloom guy out a window.

I am not a sabermetrics guy ( Iknow even using that term places me as a dinosaur) but I have long doubted the effectiveness of signing the super star to the ludicrously large contracts. The Phillies were a crap team both before and after signing Harper. I really like Mookie but if I am a GM I let him walk. Signing a top pitcher to a huge contract might make sense if it is the one piece that will put you over the top but it will bite you in the ass....likely sooner than later...looking at the Red Sox pitching staff as a recent example. It worked for them in the short term but saddled with those contracts and a broken down starting staff for how long will it cripple them?

The Blue Jays executives have come under a ton of criticism lately for their actions (or inaction) but I think they are on the right track with their potential great young core. In a year or two they may be in position to sign an Ace that will put them in contention.

Frunobulax · Jan 15, 2020

belfastboy said:
Hasn't cheating been a part of the game for a very long time? Should Gaylord Perry's records now be expunged as he was a serial slobberer of the baseball? I am not sure we can look back on baseball and declare there was a golden age of integrity and honour to the game. In many ways the game used to be much more brutal than today's gentile version. The game is filled with hard men who would bend the rules, knock you down, open up your calf with a metal cleat, tag you in the mouth with a baseball, separate your shoulder at home plate with a takeout slide, emery boards, Vaseline, slippery elm, signals from the runner at second base were all part of the game in bygone years and to me were a wonderful part of the allure of the game. Every era deserves to have their rogues and outliers...….adds character and provides great anecdotes.

I think the difference here is that this didn't happen on the field among the players. It wasn't somebody standing on second relaying to the batter. That's gamesmanship. But once you introduce such an influence from "outside the lines," you're in different territory.

belfastboy · Jan 15, 2020

Frunobulax said:
I think the difference here is that this didn't happen on the field among the players. It wasn't somebody standing on second relaying to the batter. That's gamesmanship. But once you introduce such an influence from "outside the lines," you're in different territory.

Yes, point taken. I still think the antidote would have been to signal the breaking ball low and away and pitch a fastball up and in to Springer or Altuve. The message would have been received and the issue ended.

Frunobulax · Jan 15, 2020

belfastboy said:
Yes, point taken. I still think the antidote would have been to signal the breaking ball low and away and pitch a fastball up and in to Springer or Altuve. The message would have been received and the issue ended.

That's how it's supposed to be handled, IMHO.

belfastboy · Jan 16, 2020

I think the best tweet of the day yesterday in response to Cora's firing was from Marcus Stroman. Stroman a player that Cora publicly criticized for his emotional displays. Cora hated them and Stroman as they are decidedly not old school. So Stroman tweeted in response to Cora's firing with words to the effect...."So you don't like the way that I play the game?" Not a great fan of Stroman but sometimes revenge is terribly sweet.

Fading Fast · Jan 16, 2020

Frunobulax said:
I think the difference here is that this didn't happen on the field among the players. It wasn't somebody standing on second relaying to the batter. That's gamesmanship. But once you introduce such an influence from "outside the lines," you're in different territory.

This seems spot on to me. I have no issue with a player on second "stealing" a signal as every sports team has the challenge of conveying its strategy to its players in real time while keeping it secret from the opposing players on the field - that is very much part of the game / it's part of most games.

And I'm not going to say I know the exact spot of the line, but as @LizzieMaine noted in an earlier post, once you bring in technology (like a telescope in '51), you've crossed it.

As we've noted above, the past "cheating" might have become part of baseball's "lore," but to those who were cheated, it's still wrong, so I don't see "it happened in the past" as a defense.

belfastboy · Jan 16, 2020

Fading Fast said:
This seems spot on to me. I have no issue with a player on second "stealing" a signal as every sports team has the challenge of conveying its strategy to its players in real time while keeping it secret from the opposing players on the field - that is very much part of the game / it's part of most games.

And I'm not going to say I know the exact spot of the line, but as @LizzieMaine noted in an earlier post, once you bring in technology (like a telescope in '51), you've crossed it.

As we've noted above, the past "cheating" might have become part of baseball's "lore," but to those who were cheated, it's still wrong, so I don't see "it happened in the past" as a defense.

I think a very interesting aspect is how much Cora considers himself "old school". To him the stealing of signs has always been part of the game and he did not appear to discern any line being crossed as he brought the art of stealing into the 21st C. To me it is such a head scratcher than the means of conveying the stolen sign to the batter was via the banging of a garbage can. I don't have a huge problem with it all but think he needed to get fired for coming up with such a bone headed means of conveyance. How was it not picked up by the opposition? (other than the White Sox pitcher)

Fading Fast · Jan 16, 2020

belfastboy said:
I think a very interesting aspect is how much Cora considers himself "old school". To him the stealing of signs has always been part of the game and he did not appear to discern any line being crossed as he brought the art of stealing into the 21st C. To me it is such a head scratcher than the means of conveying the stolen sign to the batter was via the banging of a garbage can. I don't have a huge problem with it all but think he needed to get fired for coming up with such a bone headed means of conveyance. How was it not picked up by the opposition? (other than the White Sox pitcher)

From NBC News:

"...Cora, then a coach with the team [the Astros], arranged for a video room technician to install a monitor displaying the camera feed just outside the Astros' dugout, according to the report...."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/red-sox-part-ways-alex-cora-amid-astros-sign-stealing-n1115711

Yes, the banging of the garbage seems odd/stupid/whatever, but that's not really the issue IMO; the issue is the monitor and camera, that is outright cheating, again, IMO.

And, regardless of our opinions, stealing signs by electronic or mechanical means is illegal according to baseball's rulebook; whereas, (from what I've read) the rulebook is silent about on-field players or the third base coach doing so by eye and conveying that info by body language. So, effectively (again, based on what I've read, I'm not an expert and if others know better, I'm willing to learn), Cora outright broke the rules, which, interestingly, seem to draw the line pretty much right where we've all been talking about in this thread.

LizzieMaine · Jan 16, 2020

Yep, that's like Durocher not just putting a telescope in the clubhouse, but also hiring an electrician to come in and wire a buzzer from the clubhouse to sound signals in the bullpen. It's that extra layer of technological chicanery that takes it out of the realm of common manuevering and into that of flat-out baseball crime.

Harp · Jan 16, 2020

Fading Fast said:
And I'm not going to say I know the exact spot of the line, but as @LizzieMaine noted in an earlier post, once you bring in technology (like a telescope in '51), you've crossed it.

Lizzie is correct. And there should be consequences when the line is crossed.

belfastboy · Jan 16, 2020

Harp said:
Lizzie is correct. And there should be consequences when the line is crossed.

Yes, I don't disagree but I do find it interesting that Cora a baseball man prideful of his connection to 'old school' did NOT make that distinction. It would be interesting to talk to the Astro players and in a candid moment would they speak to whether they actually received any advantage. I am thinking that perhaps the good hitters like Springer, Altuve, Bregman it would be as much distraction as added edge. Maybe for players closer to the Mendoza line it would have helped. Fascinating to find out.

HudsonHawk · Jan 17, 2020

LizzieMaine said:
And player access to video gear during games has to stop, period. If you must have replays, put them in the press box, and assign an extra umpire to be up there with the monitor. No more equipment anywhere near the dugouts or playing field.

So they've done that. The video replay is now on an 8 second (I think) delay, and there is a league official who's job it is to monitor the replay video feed to ensure there are no shenanigans. This was implemented last year. There are also league officials who patrol the dugout, tunnels, and clubhouse during games. So they've at least *tried* to curb that part of it.

HudsonHawk · Jan 17, 2020

belfastboy said:
My first thought yesterday after reading of the Astros firing....is this the end for Hinch and now Cora? Or will they serve a compensatory time in purgatory and eventually be rehabilitated? Or as Jim Morrison sang...."this is the end!"

Not sure about Cora, but Hinch will certainly manage again, if he wants to. Teams are already discussing hiring him the day after the 2020 World Series ends. He's extremely likeable, in addition to being good managing, so teams will be much more forgiving with him. Others, such as former Astros GM Jeff Luhnow...I'm not so sure. Luhnow is pretty well universally disliked in the game, and believe it or not, a lot of baseball comes down to relationships and personalities. It's a really small circle.

HudsonHawk · Jan 17, 2020

Fading Fast said:
I hate to see lives ruined, but also, if we don't have severe penalties for severe crimes, then we'll just have more severe crimes.

This is part of the issue...how severe a crime do you believe stealing signs is? Is it a crime that deserves a fine? Jail time? The death penalty? It's easy to say "it's all cheating", but that's just not reality. Should they ban pitchers who use a little pine tar they have on the underside of their cap? And I think it's a fair question to ask what you do when you realize everyone has been doing it since the second inning of the first game played back in 1846. Not that it's an excuse, but do we really want to make it an existential crisis in the game?

The Astros and Red Sox and yes, the Yankees were bad boys, and should be punished. But the self-righteous manufactured outrage by some fans (and make no mistake, this is driven by Yankee and Dodger fans...no one else, including the players, care) is just bizarre.

HudsonHawk · Jan 17, 2020

belfastboy said:
Yes, I don't disagree but I do find it interesting that Cora a baseball man prideful of his connection to 'old school' did NOT make that distinction. It would be interesting to talk to the Astro players and in a candid moment would they speak to whether they actually received any advantage. I am thinking that perhaps the good hitters like Springer, Altuve, Bregman it would be as much distraction as added edge. Maybe for players closer to the Mendoza line it would have helped. Fascinating to find out.

Some players would probably tell you there is little advantage, but that varies from player to player. Some probably got a significant advantage. You still have to hit the ball, and that ain't easy. In Game 7 of the '17 ALCS, Lance McCullers threw two innings of nothing but curveballs to close out the game (the catcher didn't even give signs)...everyone watching, and every Yankee hitter knew exactly what pitch was coming and still couldn't hit it. But it's there, and it's against the rules. It needs to stop.

I do find it hilarious though of the Yankee apologists who basically claim that without the banging, the Astros hitters would have failed to make any contact all season. They basically would have been no-hit 162 times is the narrative, and the Yankees would have found some way to win Game 7 by a score of 0 to -1. But that's the level of irrationality that's driving this.

HudsonHawk · Jan 17, 2020

On another note...taking off my Astros cap, I'm kind of disappointed that the players escaped with no punishment (except Carlos Beltran, I guess). If this was a player-driven scheme...and there is no way that the brilliant idea of banging on a trash can didn't come from the mind of a ballplayer...I find it disingenuous to give them total immunity. I understand why, the players' union would never allow it, but it seemed like a total copout by Manfred. If you want it to stop, you have to de-incentivize those who would benefit. And that didn't happen. This will be the end of the investigations and punishments, right or wrong, because MLB doesn't want to have to deal with it, but it will not end the sign stealing. By any team.

belfastboy · Jan 17, 2020

HudsonHawk said:
This is part of the issue...how severe a crime do you believe stealing signs is? Is it a crime that deserves a fine? Jail time? The death penalty? It's easy to say "it's all cheating", but that's just not reality. Should they ban pitchers who use a little pine tar they have on the underside of their cap? And I think it's a fair question to ask what you do when you realize everyone has been doing it since the second inning of the first game played back in 1846. Not that it's an excuse, but do we really want to make it an existential crisis in the game?

The Astros and Red Sox and yes, the Yankees were bad boys, and should be punished. But the self-righteous manufactured outrage by some fans (and make no mistake, this is driven by Yankee and Dodger fans...no one else, including the players, care) is just bizarre.

Yes, thank you. I think you have nailed it. I agree, the perps were caught, had to be punished but no further hand wringing required. I also think this issue will now be old news very quickly now that super super star Trout is being accused as a drug cheat. On to the next crisis!

BATTER UP!

Fading Fast

Fading Fast

LizzieMaine

belfastboy

Frunobulax

belfastboy

Frunobulax

belfastboy

Fading Fast

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Fading Fast

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Harp

I'll Lock Up

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HudsonHawk

I'll Lock Up

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I'll Lock Up

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I'll Lock Up

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