Face Masks And other DIY projects

Will Zach said:

What is the common thing in all the countries that stopped the virus (China, Japan, S. Korea)? Their populations wear masks (and track infections diligently, of course). 80-90% of virus carriers are asymptomatic, and masks prevent them from spreading the virus. Unfortunately Europe and US don't do that, and are paying a heavy price.

Click to expand...

The sad truth.

jonesy86 said:

• There is not enough evidence to prove that wearing a surgical mask significantly reduces a healthy person’s risk of becoming infected while wearing it. According to WHO, wearing a mask in situations where it is not recommended to do so can create a false sense of security because it might lead to neglecting fundamental hygiene measures, such as proper hand hygiene.

Click to expand...

This is from that article from which you quoted, the German section. I find this sort of stuff to be really stupid. It's classic language of scientific people talking to other scientific people. It should never find its way into public reading since it's too easy for regular people to misinterpret it to mean "masks don't do anything". That's not what they're saying. They're just saying we don't have 100% proof (or beyond a reasonable doubt) that masks work. Even if it's only 50% effective, or as little as 10%, it's better than nothing.

my mom made me some home made masks from polkadot fabrics when I visited her yesterday.

Will Zach said:

What is the common thing in all the countries that stopped the virus (China, Japan, S. Korea)? Their populations wear masks (and track infections diligently, of course). 80-90% of virus carriers are asymptomatic, and masks prevent them from spreading the virus. Unfortunately Europe and US don't do that, and are paying a heavy price.

Click to expand...

There's another common factor, a much bigger, cultural one that I believe will be huge in dictating the outcome here: all those SE Asian societies have an ingrained cultural notion of the collective, that sometimes the interests of society as a whole must come first over and above individual liberites. In a culture more in thrall to the cult of the individual, it is vastly harder to get people to play ball and do what doesn't suit their personal demands.

Hmm, in our country indonesia there is a strong feeling to "gather" as a family they like to gather in low time, so when people are losing job or sent home, instead of self distancing as instructed, they hopped on a bus and went to the countryside they grew up where their siblings and parent are. I think that would present a huge danger since our country is very vast and rural areas are very traditional in view and belief. Sick people might be brought to spiritual healer or having a massage to cure illnesses. But one thing that binds all asians is they are all superstitious, and mostly religious, so it is much easier to scare them and make people scared of something, when a respected leader of their society instruct them to do things they would likely follow better than if the president of the country tell them to do the same. europeans probably have grown too argumentative, cynical and rational to follow order, thats why they are so difficult to tell to do things before any visible effidence, in this case unfortunately significant casualties as effidence.

So here in my country it is very easy to tell people to wear mask, or to wash their hands, but very hard to tell them to stay away from their relatives.

article on mask wearing:
https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/c...here-is-new-scientific-rationale-280e08ceee71

Edward said:

There's another common factor, a much bigger, cultural one that I believe will be huge in dictating the outcome here: all those SE Asian societies have an ingrained cultural notion of the collective, that sometimes the interests of society as a whole must come first over and above individual liberites. In a culture more in thrall to the cult of the individual, it is vastly harder to get people to play ball and do what doesn't suit their personal demands.

Click to expand...

navetsea said:

Hmm, in our country indonesia there is a strong feeling to "gather" as a family they like to gather in low time, so when people are losing job or sent home, instead of self distancing as instructed, they hopped on a bus and went to the countryside they grew up where their siblings and parent are. I think that would present a huge danger since our country is very vast and rural areas are very traditional in view and belief. Sick people might be brought to spiritual healer or having a massage to cure illnesses. But one thing that binds all asians is they are all superstitious, and mostly religious, so it is much easier to scare them and make people scared of something, when a respected leader of their society instruct them to do things they would likely follow better than if the president of the country tell them to do the same. europeans probably have grown too argumentative, cynical and rational to follow order, thats why they are so difficult to tell to do things before any visible effidence, in this case unfortunately significant casualties as effidence.

Click to expand...

Good points, by both of you. It's amazing how cultural differences matter and how little we pay attention to them normally.

in my city, there are currently 3active covid-19 cases, and from the last news all three are healing, with probably total (4?) cases of which the first patient died, however with such low number, people are wearing masks, in supermarkets hand sanitizers and hand soap are always sold out.

I visited my mom two days ago, there was a delivery courier sending package probably her daughter's in law bought online, my mom received the package like it contains plutonium, and then place it in the corner of the room on the floor, and quickly wash her hands, when I showed her the raw denim jacket for my sister in photo, the first comment she said was "that needs to be washed" so I washed the raw denim with soap and rinse it in dettol to make it smell like hospital. and when I delivered it with only slightly damp cuff and collar the next day, she immediately bake it in the sun for the rest of the day, so I came back the next day to see how the jacket fits my sister , see I might be a virus carrier but she doesn't get afraid of me. but a package wrapper and a jacket giving her strong reaction.

Doctor Damage said:

This is from that article from which you quoted, the German section. I find this sort of stuff to be really stupid. It's classic language of scientific people talking to other scientific people. It should never find its way into public reading since it's too easy for regular people to misinterpret it to mean "masks don't do anything". That's not what they're saying. They're just saying we don't have 100% proof (or beyond a reasonable doubt) that masks work. Even if it's only 50% effective, or as little as 10%, it's better than nothing.

View attachment 223743

Click to expand...

That's the nub of this issue. We are talking about harm minimization. Any protection is better than none.

Thanks for the inspiration, HandyMike! I made a prototype out of a muslin Runabout Goods bag. Ready to start making some better ones.

navetsea said:

one thing that binds all asians is they are all superstitious, and mostly religious,

Click to expand...

Maybe. Maybe not. But that's a discussion for another thread.

I ride a motorcycle. A lot of bikers already have a balaclava.

Just as useful or useless as a disposable paper surgical mask. Next we will see people with hardware store dust mask.

Fifty150 said:

Maybe. Maybe not. But that's a discussion for another thread.

I ride a motorcycle. A lot of bikers already have a balaclava.
View attachment 223904 View attachment 223905
Just as useful or useless as a disposable paper surgical mask. Next we will see people with hardware store dust mask.

Click to expand...

These are useful if they keep spray from sneezes and coughs in, which will keep others safe. They won't stop you contracting the disease necessarily, but if everyone wore masks, we'd a) show that we're - at least openly intending to - keep other people healthy and b) remind each other of the measures that we take (social distancing, washing hands, avoiding touching the face).

Of course, the difficult element remains people who simply don't believe that this can or will affect them, or that they are responsible to others in any way.

wearing mask or gloves indeed help reminding me not to touch my face on a whim, still not getting used to carry hand sanitizer around, the bottle is rather bulky, maybe I need to find smaller bottle I can hang on my keychain

zebedee said:

the difficult element remains people who simply don't believe that this can or will affect them, or that they are responsible to others in any way

Click to expand...

Opinions vary. There are people who want to reopen bathhouses. It's cultural.

navetsea said:

Hmm, in our country indonesia there is a strong feeling to "gather" as a family they like to gather in low time, so when people are losing job or sent home, instead of self distancing as instructed, they hopped on a bus and went to the countryside they grew up where their siblings and parent are. I think that would present a huge danger since our country is very vast and rural areas are very traditional in view and belief. Sick people might be brought to spiritual healer or having a massage to cure illnesses. But one thing that binds all asians is they are all superstitious, and mostly religious, so it is much easier to scare them and make people scared of something, when a respected leader of their society instruct them to do things they would likely follow better than if the president of the country tell them to do the same. europeans probably have grown too argumentative, cynical and rational to follow order, thats why they are so difficult to tell to do things before any visible effidence, in this case unfortunately significant casualties as effidence.

So here in my country it is very easy to tell people to wear mask, or to wash their hands, but very hard to tell them to stay away from their relatives.

Click to expand...

I've noticed a significant variation across different religious communities. Within my own, there's been an entirely rational response - to follow proper medical advice (including cancelling regular physical services, replacing them with online events), based in part on the church's sense of duty to look after its flock. On the other hand, you get the outliers (usually of the uber-evangelical, non-denomenational - and therfore largely unaccountable - variety) like that guy in, was it Texas?, who presides over a megachurch of a thousand folks, and is refusing to comply with an official order to cease physical gatherings because his persecution complex is more important to him than his congregation (and, I guess, a dangerous notion that the Divine will stop them all getting it by going to church. I rather suspect the same Divine takes a dim view of those who willingly expose themselves to risk in this arrogant manner!).

Europe isavery mixed bag. Countries like Spain and Germany where there is a strong sense of the importance of collective well-being, in my experience, are coping well. Italy did struggle; in part, the virus spread there quickly because of the commonmality of daily, mulit-generational family get-togethers. Then when the north was shut down, there were a lot of carriers fled to the south, necesitating the lot be shut down. Here in the UK, it's very mixed.... most are playing ball (for now), but how many selfish idiots does it take to negate that?

casterfield said:

Thanks for the inspiration, HandyMike! I made a prototype out of a muslin Runabout Goods bag. Ready to start making some better ones.

Click to expand...

That looks really cool, nicely done!

Fifty150 said:

I ride a motorcycle. A lot of bikers already have a balaclava.
View attachment 223904 View attachment 223905

Click to expand...

Or, as we say where I'm from, "national costume."

I've been toying with the idea of one of those F1 type balaclavas with just the two eyeholes, though more as a base to put a mask on over than anything else. I've spent a lot of time this last week looking at cool, leather half-masks on Etsy, the idea being to wear one over an n95 or similar for improved aesthetic value.

Just as useful or useless as a disposable paper surgical mask. Next we will see people with hardware store dust mask.

Click to expand...

I've seen a lot of those around already. About half of folks in London currently are wearing some sort of mask, usually something along those lines, an n95 version, or a cyclists' ventilator. Basic surgical masks are common (that's what we're using for now, though we're mostly only out in the grounds of our block. For going further afield, I've bought herself an n95/fpp rated half-mask with dual filters, proper, pro thing. Still looking for something for me. I wanted a full-face gas mask (because cool look), but it seems none of them are designed to cope with glasses.... The thing I'm enjoying most, though, is the social acceptability of covering my face in public. If I could, I'd be in full Plague Doctor costume, but alas a Higher Power has forbidden it...

navetsea said:

wearing mask or gloves indeed help reminding me not to touch my face on a whim, still not getting used to carry hand sanitizer around, the bottle is rather bulky, maybe I need to find smaller bottle I can hang on my keychain

Click to expand...

There were two main schools of thought at the start of the outbreak here - wear a mask to stop you touching your faceand transferring it from your hands, or don't wearone because it might make you touch your face more to adjust it. There seems now to be a swing in favour of masks on the basis that they can't hurt, and might at least be better than nothing. Psychologically, they do seem to encourage people to respect the social distancing.

WE've been used to carrying hand gel for a long time - Her Indoors, for medical reasons, has to be very careful of infection, and I've found it handy when travelling for work. Main problem for us is actually being albe to get hold of it; that was the first thing that sold out here in the UK, much of it, it seems, to profiteers seeking to sell it at several times the price on eBay.

Fifty150 said:

Opinions vary. There are people who want to reopen bathhouses. It's cultural.

View attachment 223909 View attachment 223910

Click to expand...

Going to a bathhouse is a choice to a far greater extent. Deliberately, knowingly exposing an individual to severe or life-threatening infection is considered a crime - it's somewhat more nebulous in the case of aerosol viral transmission until a testing regimen is in place.

Whereas I understand ideas of cultural relativity (although you can shaft it pretty quickly via arguments on slavery and FGM- the justification for injurious practice almost always comes from the authority/practitioner: ain't many 'slaves for slavery- the boss says it's a good thing' proponents) -and moral relativism (which I think comes unstuck, too), a sufficiently lethal pandemic might determine which cultural models were going to survive more intact, regardless of individual 'right' or 'wrong'. It's a tightrope.

Edward said:

There's another common factor, a much bigger, cultural one that I believe will be huge in dictating the outcome here: all those SE Asian societies have an ingrained cultural notion of the collective, that sometimes the interests of society as a whole must come first over and above individual liberites. In a culture more in thrall to the cult of the individual, it is vastly harder to get people to play ball and do what doesn't suit their personal demands.

Click to expand...

Yes, one of the misconceptions spread here in Canada is the notion that....."diversity is our strength". Well yes and no. In societies that are ethnically homogenous it is easier for them to follow a collective direction. In this respect diversity is not our strength.....but then we are not allowed to say that.

Edward said:

dangerous notion that the Divine will stop them all getting it

Click to expand...

It will be real bad for people who believe in prayer over modern medicine and science. There are people whose faith rejects science and technology. Then there are the people whom are convinced that all deaths are a part of your fate and destiny. I have personally spoken to people who believe that this is Pestilence, as in The 4 Horsemen. So if there is war, famine, and death anywhere else in the world........

^^
That is cool. I can take their vaccine when it becomes available. And, btw, anti-vaxxers should not be getting any vaccine either.

zebedee said:

a sufficiently lethal pandemic might determine which cultural models were going to survive more intact

Click to expand...

zebedee said:

Going to a bathhouse is a choice to a far greater extent.

Click to expand...

Bathhouses reopen. People cross-contaminate with Covid19, HIV, H1N1, Hepatitis.......New vaccine resistant strains of viruses develop.

Western Civilization all but evaporates.

A lone man, with flowing locks like Jesus, wearing a vest with buttons on the wrong side, rises from the Islands of Sumatra and Java - to save the world with a wondrous caffeinated elixir.