Ernest P Shackleton
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I'll gladly take close enough is good enough. I appreciate the effort.
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What was the last TV show you watched?
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This is true, but there is a matter of degree and balance. I thought - maybe it was taken down - that someone referenced "Mad Men" as an example of a better period show. No doubt, as Lizzie notes, there was a lot of modern politics in MM, but there was also a lot of effort to reflect the period as well.
It's a balance. MM did an outstanding job, IMO, with the gay character Sal. His character, the storyline and how different characters interacted with him were all very consistent with what I saw in the '70s and '80s (ten and twenty years post the '60s) than I see around most gay characters in period shows today.
Don's view toward Sal was like a lot of people I knew in the '70s and '80s that, basically, didn't care if someone was gay, but also wasn't charging the ramparts in their defense. And Sal was very mixed about what he wanted as I also saw back then in real life people. What I didn't see was the in-your-face, I'll risk my career, position, everything attitude that many period gay characters have now.
I have no doubt they existed - there are always maverick and fighters - but the way MM handled a gay character felt very consistent with what I saw a decade after the '60s. Today, they'd write him as a hero and out-loud advocate and anyone not fully on board would be an enemy in most period shows today.
Don and Sal were much more true-to-life people in that they found a compromise that worked for their time. Both were heroes in a way, but just not ones that fit our modern narrative. They were a step on the path to a better world, but again, that's not what seems to satisfy today's writers and, maybe, audiences. But MM was, what, ten years ago and it was successful.
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Ernest P Shackleton
One Too Many
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I was the one who mentioned Mad Men. I'm not saying any show was perfect, but some do a very good job of it. When Mad Men was running, it was picked apart like crazy. The nice thing about that picking was it came from enthusiasm and positivism. It wasn't in hopes to crush the spirit of the show with complaints and cynicism. I used to follow a couple of forums, and while they would find mistakes, the overwhelming response and opinion was that they were nailing a great amount of the details, from characters to situations to stage props. They were clearly a priority of Matthew Weiner, and that's the difference in a nutshell. Nobody's talking absolutes here. Try or try not. Too many are on the latter end of that.
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Sorry, yes it was you. For some reason, when I went back before my last post, I missed seeing your post, but knew I had seen it earlier. MM is a great example of a show better placed on the continuum between bending to modern views on one end and perfect period accuracy on the other.
Having been born in '64, my window into the '60s is, of course, mainly the '70s (and what I can read and watch from the period), but nothing changes on a dime. Even when I started working in NYC in the '80s, plenty of the '60s-era guys were still working - they were the ones running the show and in the senior positions or, at least, the ones that had been at the firm a long time. MM felt very real to me in a way that other modern '60s period shows have not ("Pan Am," "The Playboy Club").
Edward
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Upsetting your market is certainly never a profitable move: Gerald Ratner could tell you as much. Alas, the extremes of those who go all baby/bathwater loom large on both sides of any expression debate. I'm as disheartened by those who would seek to use 'free expression' as a means of squashing criticism and avoiding any consequences of their own expression as I am of those who can get rather too carried away, even if well-meaning, with what should not be said.
Ernest P Shackleton
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There's a scene in the last ten minutes of The Alienist finale that, to me, was tossed at the wall for no good storytelling reason other than to pad and buffer the production from cancel culture scrutiny. I didn't think much of the episode anyway, but it was rancid icing on the cake. And then they hammered another like-moment in the final scene/diatribe. I don't mind so much when this kind of thing is subtle. Be clever with your preaching. I always say this, but earn the damn thing.
MisterCairo
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You're welcome, hope you're still watching and enjoying. You see Michelle Dockery in a way you never do on DA.
I am on series two of High Seas (Alta Mar). Set in the early 40s, exact same style and reaction by me. Well dressed art deco cheese...
I MUST SEE THIS.
Years ago some of us were discussing the film Public Enemy, the Johnny Depp vehicle about John Dillinger. The "picking" got so bad, I had to ask myself "What, you mean it's not a documentary"? Good natured discussion is one thing, beating something to a pulp is another.
I think here was a comment about Ripper Street here years ago, some criticism that the show was crap because they introduced into the story a teletype machine (or something) TWO WHOLE YEARS before it was introduced in reality.
FFS...
Good points. I think we need to remember too that having a position like this on entertainment is a largely question of personal taste and personal positions.
For me if a version of Grease has African American cast in it, that's fine. I don't want us compounding issues by copying the period to such a level of historical fidelity (in a juvenile musical) that my young kids don't see more diversity. There can be a pointlessness to being accurate, as much as there can be a pointlessness to pandering to 'correct' views. It's a balance and we all draw the line somewhere.
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Agreed re Dockery and, yes, every intent to finish it.
Edward
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I've not watched The Alienist yet, but on principle, that's exactly the point to me. You can be worthy without resorting to bad writing.
It's definitely all subjective. I still very much enjoyed that production, but I tyhik what hit a raw nerve with me was the Disneyfication of almost pretending that a very nasty aspect of histroy just didn't happen. The production of Grase I've always wanted to see would be one set in a black high school in 1959, with an all black cast. Maybe make the Scorpions white boys, as they were from another school (though technially that might throw the dance sequence into problems - I'm pretty sure prom would have also been heavily segregated in 59!).
That said, I was never bothered by the obvious oopsie in The Shawshank Redemption, which featured a desegregated prison in the US in the forties. I imagine much of that was down to the sheer power of Morgan Freeman's performance.
Yeah, I think there are some things that work and some that don't, and I know I need to be careful not to be ruled by dogma.
Edward
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It's funny, I have for years been saying that science fiction - or anything set in "the future" - is a real window into the time in which it was made, but I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that the same can be said in spades for almost anything set in the past and made as a period piece.
Worf
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Well after reading some recent postings on this thread I feel a need to chime in. I grew up in a time when anyone that looked like me was rarely if EVER depicted on film, and when we were we were maids, chauffeurs, cooks or slaves. Then when things loosened up in 70's we were allowed to be "heroes" as long as said heroes were pimps, hustlers, drug dealers, drug addicts or side pieces to someone else in a cop drama. Now I don't go with putting black people in roles or positions they would NEVER historically have been in (see my review of "Overlord" for example) but when you come from not existing on the silver screen at all (outside the aforementioned list) you tend to get a little paranoid.
Most of America does not know that Black Units fought in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War (maybe now they know after "Glory"). That we charged up Kettle Hill right along side Teddy's Rough Riders or that a black anti-aircraft unit was fighting right inside Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge along with everyone else. Truth be told my people's history is neither taught nor portrayed in the popular culture of this country or it's curriculums. I could hear head's exploding all over the country after "Hidden Figures" came out. When I was flying with the 99th Pursuit Squadron in the combat flight simulation "IL2 Sturmovik" I had someone tell me in all caps that the Black pilot in "Flyboys" was some P.C. nonsense right up to moment I sent him the history of Eugene Bullard a Black American boxer living in France who flew with the Lafayette Flying Corps in WWI and who, long after his death, was finally granted the rank of Lieutenant in the Army Air Corps by President Clinton and formally recognized as America's first Black fighter pilot.
So from all this you might rightly think that there's two sides to this discussion. I firmly believe in Truth and Historic fidelity. Don't put folks where they didn't exist or historically don't belong. BUT don't start bitchin' and moanin' about THAT until ALL the history has been told. Be it black, brown, yellow, white and red, tell all those stories and then maybe there'll be no need to paste folks in history where they didn't exist.
Worf
Most of America does not know that Black Units fought in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War (maybe now they know after "Glory"). That we charged up Kettle Hill right along side Teddy's Rough Riders or that a black anti-aircraft unit was fighting right inside Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge along with everyone else. Truth be told my people's history is neither taught nor portrayed in the popular culture of this country or it's curriculums. I could hear head's exploding all over the country after "Hidden Figures" came out. When I was flying with the 99th Pursuit Squadron in the combat flight simulation "IL2 Sturmovik" I had someone tell me in all caps that the Black pilot in "Flyboys" was some P.C. nonsense right up to moment I sent him the history of Eugene Bullard a Black American boxer living in France who flew with the Lafayette Flying Corps in WWI and who, long after his death, was finally granted the rank of Lieutenant in the Army Air Corps by President Clinton and formally recognized as America's first Black fighter pilot.
So from all this you might rightly think that there's two sides to this discussion. I firmly believe in Truth and Historic fidelity. Don't put folks where they didn't exist or historically don't belong. BUT don't start bitchin' and moanin' about THAT until ALL the history has been told. Be it black, brown, yellow, white and red, tell all those stories and then maybe there'll be no need to paste folks in history where they didn't exist.
Worf
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Almost through Season 2 of "The Man in the High Castle"....I think we will see it through to the end of 4th season but damn I wanted to like is so much more than I am. Spotty writing, cliched characters where the attempts to round them out as humans somehow fails......forehead slapping plot devices and turns, time shifting character that has yet to have a point......... And the worst of all is the two lead Characters...Joe and what's her name (Juliana Crane?) are just downright annoying. As I type this I am wondering just why in hell I am continuing to watch it? Not sure but it might be because in this time of Covid I have run out of everything else.
Worf
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A few more words about Eugene Bullard. This son of a slave (literally) stayed in France between the wars and when the Nazi's started marching he signed up to fight again. Wounded in the back at age 44 he was forcibly smuggled out of occupied France by the Underground and made it back to America. He returned to France again in the 50's managing tours for Louis Armstrong among other jazz greats.
The story of Eugene Bullard wouldn't have ever been known at all if he weren't working as an elevator operator in New York when by a chance conversation he wound up telling his remarkable story on the Today Show then hosted by Dave Garroway. Ignored by America he was honored by the Nation he fought for, France. who, shortly before his death in 1961, gave him that nations highest honor, he was Knighted and given the Chevalier de la Legion d’honneur, by none other than Charles DeGaulle himself.
A life well lived and story that begs telling.
Worf
PS And before learning how to fly he fought with the French Foreign Legion. Only taking up flying while recovering from wounds received at the Front.
The story of Eugene Bullard wouldn't have ever been known at all if he weren't working as an elevator operator in New York when by a chance conversation he wound up telling his remarkable story on the Today Show then hosted by Dave Garroway. Ignored by America he was honored by the Nation he fought for, France. who, shortly before his death in 1961, gave him that nations highest honor, he was Knighted and given the Chevalier de la Legion d’honneur, by none other than Charles DeGaulle himself.
A life well lived and story that begs telling.
Worf
PS And before learning how to fly he fought with the French Foreign Legion. Only taking up flying while recovering from wounds received at the Front.
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Edward
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I quite enjoyed Flyboys - it was a part of WW1 history of which I'd previously been unaware. It was quite ashock in the end to be reminded in the epilogue that he was not pemitted to fly in the early US AAC simply because of his skin colour. Not unlike that uncomfortable moment at Arlington Cemetary when, after seeing the constant wreath-laying ceremonies and the sheer level of fetishisation, almost, of the military, you get to the "Coloured Section". The idea that segregation ran so late, an applied evne in death...
Bullard's story would make for a fantastic film. Much like the Tuskagee airmen of the second WW - (even if, as I gather from many reviews, Red Tails turned out to be disappointing, it at least still flagged up an important part of history on the mainstream radar).
Hidden Figures was beautifully done. I know that certtain of the historical details were altered or compresed in the timeline for dramatic reasons, but all the same it covered some really important territory in a nuanced way. I liked also how they portrayed the role of the young astronaut who put such value on Katherine Johnson's calculations. I know the film was accused of "white saviour" tropes; I didn't feel that was necesarily fair. The pilot and some other came across more like 'allies' to me. Actually, one of the best performances I think that rang true of the white chatacters was Jim Parsons' portrayal of a man raised with cultural prejudice who gradually learns to respect 'the other' thorugh interaction and experience on a human, individual level. I thought that was a very subtle portrayal. It's something I could identify with having seen in action growing up in a Northern Ireland at the peak of the sectarian Troubles. That said, of course, I don't think I'll ever truly know what it must be like to face a prejudice from wihch you cannot "hide" - I've experienced anti-Irish prejudices in the past, but if needsbe it was never hard to keep my mouth shut or pass as Scottish.
Bullard's story would make for a fantastic film. Much like the Tuskagee airmen of the second WW - (even if, as I gather from many reviews, Red Tails turned out to be disappointing, it at least still flagged up an important part of history on the mainstream radar).
Hidden Figures was beautifully done. I know that certtain of the historical details were altered or compresed in the timeline for dramatic reasons, but all the same it covered some really important territory in a nuanced way. I liked also how they portrayed the role of the young astronaut who put such value on Katherine Johnson's calculations. I know the film was accused of "white saviour" tropes; I didn't feel that was necesarily fair. The pilot and some other came across more like 'allies' to me. Actually, one of the best performances I think that rang true of the white chatacters was Jim Parsons' portrayal of a man raised with cultural prejudice who gradually learns to respect 'the other' thorugh interaction and experience on a human, individual level. I thought that was a very subtle portrayal. It's something I could identify with having seen in action growing up in a Northern Ireland at the peak of the sectarian Troubles. That said, of course, I don't think I'll ever truly know what it must be like to face a prejudice from wihch you cannot "hide" - I've experienced anti-Irish prejudices in the past, but if needsbe it was never hard to keep my mouth shut or pass as Scottish.
Thanks for sharing your perspective on this issue.
MisterCairo
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Working on season four of Sons of Anarchy. Love how we know what will happen, but not exactly when or how, as it's been just long enough since the first run through.
Worf
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The premiere of HBO's "Lovecraft Country" - Slow, plodding and personally painful to watch at first this show explodes, literally and figuratively, in the last 20 minutes or so. Wow... don't know where it's going but I think I'll give it at least 2 more episodes.
Worf
Worf
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