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Hat making?? Learning Millinery..

Gobi

Gobi

One of the Regulars
Messages
169
belfastboy said:
Well I ruined my first felt today. I wanted to push the pouncing to see what would happen and to find out how far was too far. The good news is that I pounced a fairly thick and stiff Winchester beaver felt to a wonderfully soft finish....a wonderful hand. The bad news is the dye is so very mottled. I am thinking that I have some natural indigo dye laying around and I will re dye this and see what I get. It was a noble experiment....I just wish it had a better result. Pics are not great. View attachment 270325 View attachment 270326
Click to expand...

That's too bad. I'm curious to see the outcome of dying. Sometimes it's fun to experiment and at the end of the day we learn something so not all is bad.
I once pounced the crap out of a stetson western. It was a nice whiskey color and the felt was fairly thin to begin with but I still nearly halved the thickness. I was totally new to felt hats and I was just trying to make it like the hats I saw on old westerns. Hindsight, it was pretty darn close to begin with! Anyway after hours of pouncing by hand, the color never mottled at all. I have no idea the fur quality but it was pretty nice. It was a John Deere Stetson and way better than other John Deere Stetsons I've owned since then. After all that pouncing the color was the same as when I started only the felt was thinner and it had a really nice hand. It still held up to the elements very well. That was one of the first felts I ever owned and i just assumed that all Stetson hats would be that good. I soon found out how terrible some of them could be.
 
humanshoes

humanshoes

One Too Many
Messages
1,428
Location
Tennessee
deadlyhandsome said:
You mean you learned how to duplicate the old masters’ marble finish and it only adds $200 to the cost of the hat! ;)

Rick @humanshoes can share photos of a similar finish on my nutria in pewter.
Click to expand...
Yep, after thinning the nutria felt down to half it's original weight, the felt was tight and smooth as glass. Then I sprayed it with distilled water for final brim pressing before binding and the core made itself known. It showed up as a darker discoloration, unlike the Winchester felts that have a whitish shellac core, that didn't go away even after drying. At this point, I'm pretty well convinced that none of modern western weight felts will lend themselves to overly aggressive pouncing.
IMG_1778.JPG
IMG_1777.JPG
 
humanshoes

humanshoes

One Too Many
Messages
1,428
Location
Tennessee
belfastboy said:
Well I ruined my first felt today. I wanted to push the pouncing to see what would happen and to find out how far was too far. The good news is that I pounced a fairly thick and stiff Winchester beaver felt to a wonderfully soft finish....a wonderful hand. The bad news is the dye is so very mottled. I am thinking that I have some natural indigo dye laying around and I will re dye this and see what I get. It was a noble experiment....I just wish it had a better result. Pics are not great. View attachment 270325 View attachment 270326
Click to expand...
Welcome to the club bb. I have a few of those myself.
 
T Jones

T Jones

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,615
Location
Central Ohio
humanshoes said:
Welcome to the club bb. I have a few of those myself.
Click to expand...
They definitely don't make 'em like they used to. I've worked with plenty of different felts from the more recent Westerns to earlier vintage hats. Even in their worst shape, when they come my way, earlier vintage hats are far better in felt and dye quality than anything made today. Felting is a lost art in the U.S.. I may get some grief over this, but in my opinion, Winchester felt is not that good as far as felt and dye quality. The only custom hat I have is made from 100% Beaver Winchester felt. I have nothing bad to say about the hatter who made it for me because he's actually one of the best hatters out there and his workmanship is excellent, but the Winchester felt he made my hat from was disappointing, although his workmanship was great. I also came across a couple of Westerns that were made from Winchester felt. I have nothing good to say the felt quality of those hats either. There's times when I see members posting their custom hats that I can immediately tell right off that they were made from Winchester felt. I don't say anything about that, though, because if they're happy with their hats, that's all that matters and my opinion means nothing in that regard. From my experience, in working on a few and having a custom hat made from their Beaver felt, I don't like Winchester. But, that's "my opinion, only". As far as converting some of the more recent vintage Westerns, the one bit of advice that I would give as far as pouncing, go very light and easy with it, if at all. Keep in mind that these hats are already finished and if you pounce them even more, you're going to end up with a mottled finish. I would think that the pre pounced raw felt bodies would be the same way. Now, another bit of advice, if you you want to thin out a thickly felted Western for a conversion or a refurb, block it inside out and do your sanding from the underside so that any flaws wont show up on the finished side. After you get the thickness where you want it, then reblock it again, finished side out. Now, for another bit of advice, if you want some good quality hat tools to make your hats stand out, see my buddy Rick! I totally love the rounding jack he made for me. It's definitely one of my prized possessions!
 
Last edited:
belfastboy

belfastboy

Messages
10,392
Location
vancouver, canada
T Jones said:
They definitely don't make 'em like they used to. I've worked with plenty of different felts from the more recent Westerns to earlier vintage hats. Even in their worst shape, when they come my way, earlier vintage hats are far better in felt and dye quality than anything made today. Felting is a lost art in the U.S.. I may get some grief over this, but in my opinion, Winchester felt is not that good as far as felt and dye quality. The only custom hat I have is made from 100% Beaver Winchester felt. I have nothing bad to say about the hatter who made it for me because he's actually one of the best hatters out there and his workmanship is excellent, but the Winchester felt he made my hat from was disappointing, although his workmanship was great. I also came across a couple of Westerns that were made from Winchester felt. I have nothing good to say the felt quality of those hats either. There's times when I see members posting their custom hats that I can immediately tell right off that they were made from Winchester felt. I don't say anything about that, though, because if they're happy with their hats, that's all that matters and my opinion means nothing in that regard. From my experience, in working on a few and having a custom hat made from their Beaver felt, I don't like Winchester. But, that's "my opinion, only". As far as converting some of the more recent vintage Westerns, the one bit of advice that I would give as far as pouncing, go very light and easy with it, if at all. Keep in mind that these hats are already finished and if you pounce them even more, you're going to end up with a mottled finish. I would think that the pre pounced raw felt bodies would be the same way. Now, another bit of advice, if you you want to thin out a thickly felted Western for a conversion or a refurb, block it inside out and do your sanding from the underside so that any flaws wont show up on the finished side. After you get the thickness where you want it, then reblock it, finished side out. Now, for another bit of advice, if you want some good quality hat tools to make your hats stand out, see my buddy Rick! I totally love the rounding jack he made for me. It's definitely one of my prized possessions!
Click to expand...
I have upwards of 20 custom hats, all but a few are Winchester (mostly Beaver) and have made about 20 more. The aspect that I find most troubling about Winchester is the variation in quality. I have some Winchester hats with a wonderful soft luscious hand and others (all dress weight) stiff and unforgiving as a cheap western. I have yet to make up the Fepsa beaver felt I have as I can't decide the style but it certainly feels good but then it is fully pounced at their factory. I really do prefer working with Tonak rabbit. It is easy to work with, I have yet to get a bad felt and makes up into a good looking hat. Now it may not stand up to the elements and last as long as a beaver but for the money it makes a very presentable hat without the angst that comes with the Winchester.
The recent moth nibbled Bandera I refurbed for my wife I sanded the hell out of it in order to smooth out the nibbles. Sanded it very thin and produced a great soft vintage hand to the felt and the colour stayed consistent throughout......oh, that I could do that with a Winchester.
 
T Jones

T Jones

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,615
Location
Central Ohio
belfastboy said:
I have upwards of 20 custom hats, all but a few are Winchester (mostly Beaver) and have made about 20 more. The aspect that I find most troubling about Winchester is the variation in quality. I have some Winchester hats with a wonderful soft luscious hand and others (all dress weight) stiff and unforgiving as a cheap western. I have yet to make up the Fepsa beaver felt I have as I can't decide the style but it certainly feels good but then it is fully pounced at their factory. I really do prefer working with Tonak rabbit. It is easy to work with, I have yet to get a bad felt and makes up into a good looking hat. Now it may not stand up to the elements and last as long as a beaver but for the money it makes a very presentable hat without the angst that comes with the Winchester.
The recent moth nibbled Bandera I refurbed for my wife I sanded the hell out of it in order to smooth out the nibbles. Sanded it very thin and produced a great soft vintage hand to the felt and the colour stayed consistent throughout......oh, that I could do that with a Winchester.
Click to expand...
It'd definitely be nice if you could depend on Winchester to be consistent in their quality. But, yeah, I'd love to try out a raw Tonak felt body. I've heard a lot of good things about Tonak. Poor Mark Havens, before he passed away, was excited about being a distributor for Tonack . I'd definitely love to try it out.
 
belfastboy

belfastboy

Messages
10,392
Location
vancouver, canada
T Jones said:
It'd definitely be nice if you could depend on Winchester to be consistent in their quality. But, yeah, I'd love to try out a raw Tonak felt body. I've heard a lot of good things about Tonak. Poor Mark Havens, before he passed away, was excited about being a distributor for Tonack . I'd definitely love to try it out.
Click to expand...
I order from Agnoulita out of Greece. His pricing is good but the freight is a killer for small quantity. The Antelope finish is particularly good but the colours available are limited. A US source would be nice.
 
deadlyhandsome

deadlyhandsome

Messages
18,939
Location
Central California
T Jones said:
They definitely don't make 'em like they used to. I've worked with plenty of different felts from the more recent Westerns to earlier vintage hats. Even in their worst shape, when they come my way, earlier vintage hats are far better in felt and dye quality than anything made today. Felting is a lost art in the U.S.. I may get some grief over this, but in my opinion, Winchester felt is not that good as far as felt and dye quality. The only custom hat I have is made from 100% Beaver Winchester felt. I have nothing bad to say about the hatter who made it for me because he's actually one of the best hatters out there and his workmanship is excellent, but the Winchester felt he made my hat from was disappointing, although his workmanship was great. I also came across a couple of Westerns that were made from Winchester felt. I have nothing good to say the felt quality of those hats either. There's times when I see members posting their custom hats that I can immediately tell right off that they were made from Winchester felt. I don't say anything about that, though, because if they're happy with their hats, that's all that matters and my opinion means nothing in that regard. From my experience, in working on a few and having a custom hat made from their Beaver felt, I don't like Winchester. But, that's "my opinion, only". As far as converting some of the more recent vintage Westerns, the one bit of advice that I would give as far as pouncing, go very light and easy with it, if at all. Keep in mind that these hats are already finished and if you pounce them even more, you're going to end up with a mottled finish. I would think that the pre pounced raw felt bodies would be the same way. Now, another bit of advice, if you you want to thin out a thickly felted Western for a conversion or a refurb, block it inside out and do your sanding from the underside so that any flaws wont show up on the finished side. After you get the thickness where you want it, then reblock it again, finished side out. Now, for another bit of advice, if you want some good quality hat tools to make your hats stand out, see my buddy Rick! I totally love the rounding jack he made for me. It's definitely one of my prized possessions!
Click to expand...


I don’t know if it’s a consistency issue with Winchester or the skill and abilities of the hatter. My Gannons from 2-3 years ago are nice hats and show great attention to detail in the construction. The beaver fur felt from Winchester is alright, but nothing remarkable. I certainly prefer it over western weight felt for a fedora. My custom from Northwest, also Winchester beaver, was so hard that it wondered if it was western weight and it’s the reason I’ve avoided ordering another hat from Mike.

The two Gannons I’ve received this year are incredible. Closer to vintage than I thought possible. Thin, dense, and with a malleability I didn’t think possible from modern felt. Even then, however, there is a difference in felt characteristics between the two hats completed only a month apart. I’m convinced that a huge part of the great outcome is from Gannon’s better pouncing skills and that the lack of consistency is due to Winchester’s felting. Eric also reported that on his recently completed Gannon in blue smoke that the color wasn’t consistent and there was some light mottling.

I have/have a dozen hats made by Agnoulita that use Tonak rabbit fur felt in both the standard finish and in the antelope/suede finishes. They make nice hats, but they lack density the tightness of felted beaver.

I’ve yet to see modern western felt that compared to the best vintage western felt. You can’t get 1940s Clear Beaver type felt using modern Winchester 100% beaver hat bodies. You also apparently can’t get there using Sunrise’s 100% nutria hat bodies. I like the Sunrise Nutria felt even with its limitations, and for western weight felt I like it much better than Winchester’s.

My first Sunrise 100% nutria dress weight felt is waiting to be made by the hatter, but I have high hopes. The raw dress weight nutria is much softer and less stiff than the raw Winchester beaver hat bodies.
 
belfastboy

belfastboy

Messages
10,392
Location
vancouver, canada
deadlyhandsome said:
I don’t know if it’s a consistency issue with Winchester or the skill and abilities of the hatter. My Gannons from 2-3 years ago are nice hats and show great attention to detail in the construction. The beaver fur felt from Winchester is alright, but nothing remarkable. I certainly prefer it over western weight felt for a fedora. My custom from Northwest, also Winchester beaver, was so hard that it wondered if it was western weight and it’s the reason I’ve avoided ordering another hat from Mike.

The two Gannons I’ve received this year are incredible. Closer to vintage than I thought possible. Thin, dense, and with a malleability I didn’t think possible from modern felt. Even then, however, there is a difference in felt characteristics between the two hats completed only a month apart. I’m convinced that a huge part of the great outcome is from Gannon’s better pouncing skills and that the lack of consistency is due to Winchester’s felting. Eric also reported that on his recently completed Gannon in blue smoke that the color wasn’t consistent and there was some light mottling.

I have/have a dozen hats made by Agnoulita that use Tonak rabbit fur felt in both the standard finish and in the antelope/suede finishes. They make nice hats, but they lack density the tightness of felted beaver.

I’ve yet to see modern western felt that compared to the best vintage western felt. You can’t get 1940s Clear Beaver type felt using modern Winchester 100% beaver hat bodies. You also apparently can’t get there using Sunrise’s 100% nutria hat bodies. I like the Sunrise Nutria felt even with its limitations, and for western weight felt I like it much better than Winchester’s.

My first Sunrise 100% nutria dress weight felt is waiting to be made by the hatter, but I have high hopes. The raw dress weight nutria is much softer and less stiff than the raw Winchester beaver hat bodies.
Click to expand...
Yes, the Tonak felt definitely lacks the density and tightness of the beaver, no question. But it makes up into a good looking hat. I don't think it will have the longevity of a beaver nor will it last to become vintage. But for a decent price they make a good hat that will last many years. I am still on the fence but pondering once I get my Etsy.com site up and running offering Tonak felt fedoras for under $200.

Custom fedoras for the common man at a price he can afford....."Everyday bespoke"

I have not worked on enough Winchester beaver to have a handle on it but wondering if some colours are more prone to the mottling issue? My blue smoke started to mottle almost at the beginning of the pounce.....it just worsened as I persevered.
 
jlee562

jlee562

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,055
Location
San Francisco, CA
So now my 'problem' is looking at blocks and trying to imagine what the finished hat will look like. Besides the venerable #52 or #51 blocks, I don't really know any particular number to look for. This size 7 block popped up in an etsy search, and the price was right. Looks like it will make a reasonable approximation of a Boss of the Plains. Hopefully the seller measured the circumference correctly.


 
ChicagoWayVito

ChicagoWayVito

Practically Family
Messages
699
humanshoes said:
Yep, after thinning the nutria felt down to half it's original weight, the felt was tight and smooth as glass. Then I sprayed it with distilled water for final brim pressing before binding and the core made itself known. It showed up as a darker discoloration, unlike the Winchester felts that have a whitish shellac core, that didn't go away even after drying. At this point, I'm pretty well convinced that none of modern western weight felts will lend themselves to overly aggressive pouncing.
View attachment 270425 View attachment 270426
Click to expand...
Personally, I don't mind the mottling in some cases but only if we over pounce by a fraction. More of a subtle mottling, I think some may call it a suede finish (not to be confused with vintage suede finishes though).
 
belfastboy

belfastboy

Messages
10,392
Location
vancouver, canada
jlee562 said:
So now my 'problem' is looking at blocks and trying to imagine what the finished hat will look like. Besides the venerable #52 or #51 blocks, I don't really know any particular number to look for. This size 7 block popped up in an etsy search, and the price was right. Looks like it will make a reasonable approximation of a Boss of the Plains. Hopefully the seller measured the circumference correctly.


Click to expand...
I have a vintage one very similar to this and it makes up a good approximation of the BotPlains crown.
 
jlee562

jlee562

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,055
Location
San Francisco, CA
Took a second pass at build #2 and calling it finished. The brim re-trim got a little wonky, but it is all a learning experience for me. There is some slight mottling in this Nutria blend felt, but I can live with it. I re-rolled the brim starting with the Randal Alan curler...it puckers the brim a bit so I ended up using the puller downer and my iron to smooth it out. Yes, it is only partially curled on purpose.

This is my take on Bob Dylan's Rolling Thunder Revue hat:



My version is 5 3/4" open crown, 3 1/2" brim. I think the original is probably a full 6" open crown. Baron makes a version with a 4 1/4" brim but even with the curl I think it's slightly too big. I tried a 4" brim first, but again, I thought it was too big.





2 ply band and horse hair band, my "signature" kimono silk liner. No outrageous florals...yet.
 
jlee562

jlee562

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,055
Location
San Francisco, CA
The etsy block came in, and it's perfect!



It's a bit more squared off than my 20's Stetson and almost but not quite identical to my Knudsen BOP. I put a lightweight rabbit felt on it, required a fair amount of steam and effort to get the tippy top of the body flat with the block.



Call me crazy, but I actually kinda like the fuzzy, un-pounced look.
 
Gobi

Gobi

One of the Regulars
Messages
169
What would the length and width measurements be for a 62cm long oval block?
 
belfastboy

belfastboy

Messages
10,392
Location
vancouver, canada
jlee562 said:
The etsy block came in, and it's perfect!



It's a bit more squared off than my 20's Stetson and almost but not quite identical to my Knudsen BOP. I put a lightweight rabbit felt on it, required a fair amount of steam and effort to get the tippy top of the body flat with the block.



Call me crazy, but I actually kinda like the fuzzy, un-pounced look.
Click to expand...
I am blocking a Winchester beaver for a client today and I looked at and decided that I liked the fuzzy look to it. I did give it a going over with the white abrasive pads to get the fibres more aligned and buffed I hope he likes it too!
 
belfastboy

belfastboy

Messages
10,392
Location
vancouver, canada
jlee562 said:
Took a second pass at build #2 and calling it finished. The brim re-trim got a little wonky, but it is all a learning experience for me. There is some slight mottling in this Nutria blend felt, but I can live with it. I re-rolled the brim starting with the Randal Alan curler...it puckers the brim a bit so I ended up using the puller downer and my iron to smooth it out. Yes, it is only partially curled on purpose.

This is my take on Bob Dylan's Rolling Thunder Revue hat:



My version is 5 3/4" open crown, 3 1/2" brim. I think the original is probably a full 6" open crown. Baron makes a version with a 4 1/4" brim but even with the curl I think it's slightly too big. I tried a 4" brim first, but again, I thought it was too big.





2 ply band and horse hair band, my "signature" kimono silk liner. No outrageous florals...yet.
Click to expand...
I saw this hat on the Baron site and it is in my folder of 'future hats' pictures.
 
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