Schott x Shinki Jacket

Mich486 said:

Mmm... I don’t know man, if I were given a choice it’ll be a though one but I know the one of the three I would pass on: View attachment 281560 View attachment 281561 View attachment 281562

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Good lord, the lapels on that FC are actually tragic. The Schott... you can’t put a piece of uncooked vermicelli in a jacket and hope it looks good.

I like the Schott, looks good, uses a cool leather, I like the company, and as far as I know their jackets haven't fallen apart on their owners and are built durably.

Mich486 said:

Mmm... I don’t know man, if I were given a choice it’ll be a though one but I know the one of the three I would pass on: View attachment 281560 View attachment 281561 View attachment 281562

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I'm going to be honest, that Fine Creek does absolutely nothing for me.
To be brutally honest, I have not been impressed by ANYTHING that they have released. I do not think the designs are interesting at all. I've handled and tried some on and they just seem so generic. In comparison to Schott, I can totally understand the perspective that they are not offering much more. I think they are (cleaner stitching, more expensive materials, etc) but I agree that in terms of design, they are insanely generic to me. I have never seen a Fine Creek that I have even thought about buying for a millisecond. Between those three, I'd buy the RMC, but if I had to choose between the Fine Creek and Schott, I'd take the Schott and spend the rest of the money on some engineer boots. As @ton312 said, the lapels are tragic.

RMC does an excellent job at reproducing beautiful, classic jackets. Do I think Freewheelers is more interesting and more creative? Absolutely, but a lot of their jackets are reproductions as well, just of different jackets and I would say in my experience, their patterns and quality are higher. Remember that the boss of Freewheelers used to be a part of Real McCoys and I was told that he did a lot of their jacket designs and patterns back then before he moved on to Freewheelers and now he is the main wizard there.

dudewuttheheck said:

I'm going to be honest, that Fine Creek does absolutely nothing for me.
To be brutally honest, I have not been impressed by ANYTHING that they have released. I do not think the designs are interesting at all. I've handled and tried some on and they just seem so generic. In comparison to Schott, I can totally understand the perspective that they are not offering much more. I think they are (cleaner stitching, more expensive materials, etc) but I agree that in terms of design, they are insanely generic to me. I have never seen a Fine Creek that I have even thought about buying for a millisecond. Between those three, I'd buy the RMC, but if I had to choose between the Fine Creek and Schott, I'd take the Schott and spend the rest of the money on some engineer boots. As @ton312 said, the lapels are tragic.

RMC does an excellent job at reproducing beautiful, classic jackets. Do I think Freewheelers is more interesting and more creative? Absolutely, but a lot of their jackets are reproductions as well, just of different jackets and I would say in my experience, their patterns and quality are higher. Remember that the boss of Freewheelers used to be a part of Real McCoys and I was told that he did a lot of their jacket designs and patterns back then before he moved on to Freewheelers and now he is the main wizard there.

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I 100% agree with regard to FC. To this day I’m puzzled at why anyone would give them a second look. The jackets are just plain boring and the pattern work never looked very good to me. All the jackets are somewhat pear shaped. I have never understood the admiration for anything they’ve done.

ton312 said:

I 100% agree with regard to FC. To this day I’m puzzled at why anyone would give them a second look. The jackets are just plain boring and the pattern work never looked very good to me. All the jackets are somewhat pear shaped. I have never understood the admiration for anything they’ve done.

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I could not agree more. They are atrociously overhyped right now in the Amekaji world that I am in on Instagram and other forums. I believe it's mostly marketing hype. A lot of larger western stores have picked them up and so they of course are hyping them up even though the jackets look horribly designed. To me, not a single one excites me. They look like mall jackets made out of horsehide with better stitching.

All right so I just received mine via FedEx. First thoughts:

- wow whoever handles shipping is really on it and I need to hire them to run my shipping dept. I received this right away with no issues whatsoever and I'm impressed by how fast it arrived.

- I'm no expert on stitching and construction, but I don't see any issues here. Everything looks nice and neat (and square) and there are no obvious imperfections that I can pick out from going over it. Although like watches I'm sure if you took a loupe you're sure to find something if you really want to.

- Fit is nice for an OTR item, the only issue is it's a little large in the waist (XL size) although if I tighten up the belts it's fine. Fit is usually an issue for me as I have wide shoulders, long arms and a narrow waist. It also makes Japanese brands difficult to fit well. I want to get a Himel, but until I can travel I have to wait to go in person to check it out (I have to go to the Toronto area anyways).

- Leather quality - I'm comparing it with my IHJ-64 and I find it's not as nice in this regards. It's still very nice and I have no issue with it, but the IronHeart leather is nice and supple and has a beautiful feel to it that the Schott lacks. Even my wife prefers the IH in this regard.

Overall I'm quite happy with it, for the price point it's pretty much exactly what I would have expected so no complaints from me. If I do decide I don't like it for whatever reason I'm sure it would be pretty easy to flip and walk away no worse for the experience. For people who aren't into the whole leather thing they'd never see much difference, my wife just thinks it looks like the other one - although one has a zipper and one has buttons. To us we can sit here all day and debate the finer points, it's no different than cars, watches, or whatever else one is into.

Like someone mentioned earlier it would be a lot of fun to meet up and compare all our stuff in person where we could all look at them and enjoy the hobby. And passersby would all think we're crazy.

SilverKast said:

- Leather quality - I'm comparing it with my IHJ-64 and I find it's not as nice in this regards.

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I smiled when I read this as I own the IHJ-54 which is made from the same leather as your IHJ-64. I have to say it is the softest most supple horsehide I have ever handled, it feels like lambskin but thicker and much more durable. I’ve only owned mine for a few weeks but I can’t wait to see what it gets to look like with more wear.

SilverKast said:

All right so I just received mine via FedEx. First thoughts:

- wow whoever handles shipping is really on it and I need to hire them to run my shipping dept. I received this right away with no issues whatsoever and I'm impressed by how fast it arrived.

- I'm no expert on stitching and construction, but I don't see any issues here. Everything looks nice and neat (and square) and there are no obvious imperfections that I can pick out from going over it. Although like watches I'm sure if you took a loupe you're sure to find something if you really want to.


Like someone mentioned earlier it would be a lot of fun to meet up and compare all our stuff in person where we could all look at them and enjoy the hobby. And passersby would all think we're crazy.

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This is nice but I just have to ask -- Where are the photos?

Here it is against my Iron Heart:



And front and back:




From the back it looks too big, but it seems to be just the picture as the sleeves are just the right length for my arms. As I suspected if anything it's larger in the waist area which is typical whenever I get XL. I take almost everything to the tailor to have it taken in a little, but if I go with a large it's always to narrow across the shoulders and too short in the arms - this fit would be no different. (Edit: stitch looks weird in front view about half way down but it's just the picture, got worried and went back to look at the jacket thinking that would be a pretty obvious defect but there's nothing wrong at all - I blame my daughter's photo skills lol)

I do like that I don't have to worry about fitting my hands through the sleeves. The Iron Heart has impossibly small cuff openings that you can't fit your hands through unless unbuttoned.

SilverKast said:

Here it is against my Iron Heart:

And front and back:

From the back it looks too big, but it seems to be just the picture as the sleeves are just the right length for my arms. As I suspected if anything it's larger in the waist area which is typical whenever I get XL. I take almost everything to the tailor to have it taken in a little, but if I go with a large it's always to narrow across the shoulders and too short in the arms - this fit would be no different. (Edit: stitch looks weird in front view about half way down but it's just the picture, got worried and went back to look at the jacket thinking that would be a pretty obvious defect but there's nothing wrong at all - I blame my daughter's photo skills lol)

I do like that I don't have to worry about fitting my hands through the sleeves. The Iron Heart has impossibly small cuff openings that you can't fit your hands through unless unbuttoned.

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Looks great!

SilverKast said:

Here it is against my Iron Heart:

And front and back:

From the back it looks too big, but it seems to be just the picture as the sleeves are just the right length for my arms. As I suspected if anything it's larger in the waist area which is typical whenever I get XL. I take almost everything to the tailor to have it taken in a little, but if I go with a large it's always to narrow across the shoulders and too short in the arms - this fit would be no different. (Edit: stitch looks weird in front view about half way down but it's just the picture, got worried and went back to look at the jacket thinking that would be a pretty obvious defect but there's nothing wrong at all - I blame my daughter's photo skills lol)

I do like that I don't have to worry about fitting my hands through the sleeves. The Iron Heart has impossibly small cuff openings that you can't fit your hands through unless unbuttoned.

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Thanks for sharing those pictures. Looks like a pigment dyed Shinki or is it oil tanned?

Also, may I ask your height and weight?

Lastly, some pictures of the lining too please....

The website description said vegetable tanned, I’ll wear it a bit and see how it breaks in. It’s pretty cold here now, but I definitely have a little room to layer a bit underneath which is nice and will allow for a few more wearability options.

I’m 6’0 and 215 lbs for reference with a 46 for chest sizing and 34 for waist.

ton312 said:

Good lord, the lapels on that FC are actually tragic. The Schott... you can’t put a piece of uncooked vermicelli in a jacket and hope it looks good.

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LOL

SilverKast said:

Here it is against my Iron Heart:

And front and back:

From the back it looks too big, but it seems to be just the picture as the sleeves are just the right length for my arms. As I suspected if anything it's larger in the waist area which is typical whenever I get XL. I take almost everything to the tailor to have it taken in a little, but if I go with a large it's always to narrow across the shoulders and too short in the arms - this fit would be no different. (Edit: stitch looks weird in front view about half way down but it's just the picture, got worried and went back to look at the jacket thinking that would be a pretty obvious defect but there's nothing wrong at all - I blame my daughter's photo skills lol)

I do like that I don't have to worry about fitting my hands through the sleeves. The Iron Heart has impossibly small cuff openings that you can't fit your hands through unless unbuttoned.

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What are your thoughts on the collar? It seems to fold in two places?

SilverKast said:

Here it is against my Iron Heart:

And front and back:

From the back it looks too big, but it seems to be just the picture as the sleeves are just the right length for my arms. As I suspected if anything it's larger in the waist area which is typical whenever I get XL. I take almost everything to the tailor to have it taken in a little, but if I go with a large it's always to narrow across the shoulders and too short in the arms - this fit would be no different. (Edit: stitch looks weird in front view about half way down but it's just the picture, got worried and went back to look at the jacket thinking that would be a pretty obvious defect but there's nothing wrong at all - I blame my daughter's photo skills lol)

I do like that I don't have to worry about fitting my hands through the sleeves. The Iron Heart has impossibly small cuff openings that you can't fit your hands through unless unbuttoned.

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I think it looks good! I mean, it's brand new, hide seems substantial but I can tell that with just a little wear, it's going to end up looking great. Really nice simple, classic jacket. You definitely need to shape the collar, though. Give it some time, the jacket looks really promising!

ton312 said:

Good lord, the lapels on that FC are actually tragic. The Schott... you can’t put a piece of uncooked vermicelli in a jacket and hope it looks good.

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I don’t care much for perfecto style jackets, not my style, my point is that looking at those photos to me there is a justifiable differential in price between the FCL and the RMC versus the Schott. Schott make good jackets but they are not in the same league. I think it’s pretty obvious. Once broken in and from 2m apart they all look good. Also an H&M faux leather jacket that fits well looks good from a distance!

FCL and RMC they certainly don’t fit all body types but neither do the Schotts!

On the lapels of the FCL, I’m not trying to convince anyone that they look good, but they look pretty close in shape to the 60s perfectos which I believe they use as inspiration...

Typical lapel shale on a lancer front did vary markedly over time by a little. Schott seem - in my experience - to have been fairly consistent in making lapels that are small and where the zipped up as high as they'll go with the lapel studded down and open goes much higher than many other jackets I've seen with an off-centre zip. When you look at the style more broadly, it has varied a lot over time: I've seen eighties examples closer the Schott, while many 70s jackets had very wide lapels as matched fashions more generally at the time.


I wonder who makes IH jackets these days? Their first run of leathers were done by Aero during the Lauder era; presumably Will was the contact there as they moved with him to AL, who they're still with post-rebrand. Last time I skimmed over their website, I noticed they had jackets that were labellec as made by SB, and one or two leathers that were "only" labelled as IH, which implied they're notg working exclusively with SB now.

Marc mndt said:

I don't think Shinki is able to produce the volumes needed to do a larger run. I think 50 jackets is a lot already.

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They are a smaller tannery operation than Horween. My understanding is this is why Aero don't work with Shinki: I know they sampled a leather and it was nice (Sloan has an early pattern-test Dustbowl in one of the Shinki hides), but Shinki weren't able to guarantee the sort of quantities Aero would have wanted before they offered it on the website. (This was not long before they started working with Vicenza.) Makes sense then that you tend to see it with smaller operations or as one-ofs.

Monitor said:

@dudewuttheheck But RMC, for instance, they don't bring anything new to the table. Ever. J-24 is stitch perfect copy of an old Buco, which, back in the days has always been on the level of... Well, Schott. Wasn't anything particularly special about it (other than the neat design) so I don't see what'd make them so uniquely special nowadays if compared to a premium Schott, as they literally do the same thing in same style with same material. Ditto for Fine Creek.

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The nature of the Japanese market, as above, has a lot to do with this, though it's not all that different to many Western brands when you think about it. Like how many people on here - myself included - have shelled out big money for an A2 while turning down cheaper repops for perceived imperfections when in reality the latter are often more representative of the quality of the "real" wartime thing. It was ever thus with nostalgia, of course, which often has much higher demands of the past than people did when thatpast was present...

Guitar brands are the same. Every so often Tokai (Japan) gets criticised for "copying" (certainly the reason they took off in the West in the early eightes was because they were making better guitars, more accurate to the original designs than either Fender of Gibson at the time), yet they have a range of extremely original stuff that's well made, plays well..... and hardly anyone is interested because it's such an inherently conservative market. I mean, seriously.... you think some of us are stuck in the past, you should see how narrow-minded the average electric guitar player is. Rock 'n' roll, indeed.

Hebgen said:

I also want to chime in why I bought it. When I saw the picture I thought "Awesome!" it's just what I want!

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Bottom line, this is what matters most. Buy a jacket because you love it, and it's a priced you can and want to pay. Everything else is secondary.

Blackadder said:

I think you kind of missed the point of why Japanese makers copied those designs. They did them for the local market where the Western fit does not actually fit any, oh well most of the locals (the owner of the Vanson dealer in Japan is a really big dude that wears custom Langlitz cos nothing fits him). These are small scale companies which can survive on the local market alone but if Westerners want them, then they don't mind the extra business. I think that is quite evident from the range of sizes they offer.
BTW, the costs are kind of reversed in Japan where CXL would cost more than shiniki. That a Schott HH would cost more than a FCL.
So yes, from your viewpoint, those Japanese jackets are overpriced, meaningless copies but not so for the average Japanese. Also those "hype" we are talking about is not created by Japanese on internet and forums.

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There's very definitely a fetishisation of "Made in Japan" in the vintage repop industry that often seems to justify the high prices (are these things really so pricey in Japan itself?). It reminds me of a time when "Made in America" on a guitar was assumed to mean the quality couldn't be bettered. Now - certainly outside the US, Made In Japan guitars are seen as magically better or at least equal to the US made items, while Korea is fast catching up. Doubtless one day "Made in China" will be seen as a badge of quality.

Monitor said:

That's a crappy choice for a model. Schott, of course, fits the best, as proven by mr. president himself.

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Ah, poor Kanye.

His fashion choices are often very different than mine, but he does have an interesting collection of jackets.

Edward said:

Typical lapel shale on a lancer front did vary markedly over time by a little. Schott seem - in my experience - to have been fairly consistent in making lapels that are small and where the zipped up as high as they'll go with the lapel studded down and open goes much higher than many other jackets I've seen with an off-centre zip. When you look at the style more broadly, it has varied a lot over time: I've seen eighties examples closer the Schott, while many 70s jackets had very wide lapels as matched fashions more generally at the time.


I wonder who makes IH jackets these days? Their first run of leathers were done by Aero during the Lauder era; presumably Will was the contact there as they moved with him to AL, who they're still with post-rebrand. Last time I skimmed over their website, I noticed they had jackets that were labellec as made by SB, and one or two leathers that were "only" labelled as IH, which implied they're notg working exclusively with SB now.



They are a smaller tannery operation than Horween. My understanding is this is why Aero don't work with Shinki: I know they sampled a leather and it was nice (Sloan has an early pattern-test Dustbowl in one of the Shinki hides), but Shinki weren't able to guarantee the sort of quantities Aero would have wanted before they offered it on the website. (This was not long before they started working with Vicenza.) Makes sense then that you tend to see it with smaller operations or as one-ofs.



The nature of the Japanese market, as above, has a lot to do with this, though it's not all that different to many Western brands when you think about it. Like how many people on here - myself included - have shelled out big money for an A2 while turning down cheaper repops for perceived imperfections when in reality the latter are often more representative of the quality of the "real" wartime thing. It was ever thus with nostalgia, of course, which often has much higher demands of the past than people did when thatpast was present...

Guitar brands are the same. Every so often Tokai (Japan) gets criticised for "copying" (certainly the reason they took off in the West in the early eightes was because they were making better guitars, more accurate to the original designs than either Fender of Gibson at the time), yet they have a range of extremely original stuff that's well made, plays well..... and hardly anyone is interested because it's such an inherently conservative market. I mean, seriously.... you think some of us are stuck in the past, you should see how narrow-minded the average electric guitar player is. Rock 'n' roll, indeed.



Bottom line, this is what matters most. Buy a jacket because you love it, and it's a priced you can and want to pay. Everything else is secondary.



There's very definitely a fetishisation of "Made in Japan" in the vintage repop industry that often seems to justify the high prices (are these things really so pricey in Japan itself?). It reminds me of a time when "Made in America" on a guitar was assumed to mean the quality couldn't be bettered. Now - certainly outside the US, Made In Japan guitars are seen as magically better or at least equal to the US made items, while Korea is fast catching up. Doubtless one day "Made in China" will be seen as a badge of quality.



Ah, poor Kanye.

His fashion choices are often very different than mine, but he does have an interesting collection of jackets.

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The A2 comment really is so accurate. The modern repros are in most cases 100xs better quality than anything made during the war. People have to remember they needed huge mass quantities of these things made as quickly as possible. They had a bare minimum standard not a maximum quality standard. Still the norm today with companies who make mil-spec jackets and gear. That often means bare bones. Simply meeting small criteria. Does it keep you warm, does it zip up? Nothing gets in the way? Ok make it. I’ve noticed a lot of people take mil-spec to mean superior and often as I said it just means it gets the job done and that’s it. You’ll be getting exactly what you pay for in those cases. Nothing more.

dannyk said:

The A2 comment really is so accurate. The modern repros are in most cases 100xs better quality than anything made during the war. People have to remember they needed huge mass quantities of these things made as quickly as possible. They had a bare minimum standard not a maximum quality standard. Still the norm today with companies who make mil-spec jackets and gear. That often means bare bones. Simply meeting small criteria. Does it keep you warm, does it zip up? Nothing gets in the way? Ok make it. I’ve noticed a lot of people take mil-spec to mean superior and often as I said it just means it gets the job done and that’s it. You’ll be getting exactly what you pay for in those cases. Nothing more.

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That's the reason I didn't get into the vintage game, I prefer the superior versions we can get nowadays, and I prefer to make my own patina. If the jacket is supposed to tell a story might as well be mine

red devil said:

That's the reason I didn't get into the vintage game, I prefer the superior versions we can get nowadays, and I prefer to make my own patina. If the jacket is supposed to tell a story might as well be mine

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So true. I’ve found some great vintage pieces and still own a few. But 90% of them don’t hold a candle to today’s models. Not to mention we now have the ability to customize size and hardware like never before. There’s nothing like having a well worn perfect patina jacket that you made it that way.