Ever think some jackets are overhyped

Monitor · Feb 18, 2021

Check out any leather jacket sold by Zara or H&M. Material quality aside, those garments are very well made. Nothing fancy but always flawless. There is no reason not to expect absolutely perfect craftsmanship out of $800 item, let alone $2500+. In that price range, flawless, perfect, laser-precise stitching should be guaranteed.

Monitor · Feb 18, 2021

Click to zoom in. Ugly-ass jacket, I know, but would you agree that it is pretty much flawlessly, if not perfectly made? And that's a $200 jacket. These jackets are made exactly the same way as any high end garment. So the whole human factor argument is moot. Gucci, Dolce & Gabbana, Balenciaga, Belstaff, etc. all produce insanely well made stuff. Sloppy machining on an $800+ jacket only means amateur hour, nothing more.

Carlos840 · Feb 18, 2021

powerserge said:
@Carlos840 I just went back and looked over your review of the Chevalier and it seemed fairly positive. I’m sure it’s been mentioned and I could have missed it, but what about your Himel has you viewing it in a different light? Did you ever contact him regarding your issues with the jacket?

As i said, i have had more jackets since ordering my chevalier.
The chevalier was my 8th leather jacket, it was my first "high end" leather jacket.
I now have 50 leather jackets, i have seen a lot more jackets made by very high quality makers, my eye is better, i have a better understanding of what i should be getting for my money.
What i back then described as "If you go full OCD you will find things, but nothing i haven't seen on other jackets before." are thing that i now find inacceptable on a 2500$ leather jacket.

I will also fully admit that back then i was trying to rationalize the fact that i had spent the most i had ever spent on a leather jacket. If i received that exact same jacket nowadays i would write a different review, just like i would write a different review about my Aeros...

I have never contacted Himel about my issues, i just never really wore it that much because it felt fragile, i didn't feel like contacting him saying "your jacket feels fragile and poorly stitched" i didn't see what good could come out of it.
Also i do really appreciate the fit of that jacket, it is still to this day one of my three best fitting jackets.

powerserge · Feb 18, 2021

Carlos840 said:
As i said, i have had more jackets since ordering my chevalier.
The chevalier was my 8th leather jacket, it was my first "high end" leather jacket.
I now have 50 leather jackets, i have seen a lot more jackets made by very high quality makers, my eye is better, i have a better understanding of what i should be getting for my money.
What i back then described as "If you go full OCD you will find things, but nothing i haven't seen on other jackets before." are thing that i now find inacceptable on a 2500$ leather jacket.

I will also fully admit that back then i was trying to rationalize the fact that i had spent the most i had ever spent on a leather jacket. If i received that exact same jacket nowadays i would write a different review, just like i would write a different review about my Aeros...

I have never contacted Himel about my issues, i just never really wore it that much because it felt fragile, i didn't feel like contacting him saying "your jacket feels fragile and poorly stitched" i didn't see what good could come out of it.
Also i do really appreciate the fit of that jacket, it is still to this day one of my three best fitting jackets.

That’s very understandable and thank you for clarifying your position. It’s too bad your jacket didn’t end up working for you because it does fit great and from the pictures it looks good. I just received my first Himel and it’s still early but I am really happy with it so far. All the stitching looks very straight and to be honest there’s not really anything I could complain about. Although it’s unfortunate that some of the product coming from them is less than desirable. Hopefully this is an issue that will be addressed but we’ll see

jeo · Feb 18, 2021

Brandrea33 said:
It’s also quite possible that as with most things, perfection is not achieved with every single product just because of price.

Agreed. My Himel Frobisher has many flaws. My Imperial is much better made.

Perfection definitely can't be achieved every single time.

From what I've seen, there has been more well made Himels than ones made with serious flaws, but I agree with most here that at the Himel price point, there should be less instances of flaws.

If Himels were $1000, I don't think anyone would mind as much. But because they are the same price as the other high end jackets, they are being compared to them and unfortunately Himel doesn't hold up when it comes to execution.

Brandrea33 said:
The point I’m trying to make is that there are issues with almost every jacket maker out there it seems (except maybe Freewheelers by the sounds of it).

Not true. There was a recent thread where a FW jacket ripped. My brown caboose has some stitching flaws. Not anything major by any means, but it's not flawless.

Yes, FWs will generally be better made than most other brands, but you're right...the bottom line is that nothing is perfect and there are issues with every maker.

Personally I'm a little more forgiving when it comes to stitching perfection than many others. For me it won't enhance or decrease the wearability of the jacket. I understand how for some it will though.

But what I can't forgive is shitty looking leathers and bad fits. That's why despite their flaws, I love my Himels.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it's pretty funny that some people have this attachment to certain brands because they've patronized them (sometimes more than once) and feel the need to defend these brands when they are being criticized as if it's an attack on them personally.

I bought two Himel jackets. I spent close to $5k on them combined. I love them both, yet I recognize that both of them have flaws and I do not feel the need to defend Himel when they are being criticized. I also don't feel it's a reflection on me when a certain brand that I have patronized is being criticized. That's just me though.

sweetfights · Feb 18, 2021

Carlos840 said:
As i said, i have had more jackets since ordering my chevalier.
The chevalier was my 8th leather jacket, it was my first "high end" leather jacket.
I now have 50 leather jackets, i have seen a lot more jackets made by very high quality makers, my eye is better, i have a better understanding of what i should be getting for my money.
What i back then described as "If you go full OCD you will find things, but nothing i haven't seen on other jackets before." are thing that i now find inacceptable on a 2500$ leather jacket.

I will also fully admit that back then i was trying to rationalize the fact that i had spent the most i had ever spent on a leather jacket. If i received that exact same jacket nowadays i would write a different review, just like i would write a different review about my Aeros...

I have never contacted Himel about my issues, i just never really wore it that much because it felt fragile, i didn't feel like contacting him saying "your jacket feels fragile and poorly stitched" i didn't see what good could come out of it.
Also i do really appreciate the fit of that jacket, it is still to this day one of my three best fitting jackets.

What feels fragile about your Chevalier?? I never thought fragile would be used to describe a Himel jacket.

TheDonEffect · Feb 18, 2021

red devil said:
Sorry, I will be answering litterally regarding Freewheelers, I don't know exactly for the other mahor ones. The Freewheelers are made in the Rainbow Country factory which has been labelled as the best in Japan by several shopkeeper in the business I talked to in Japan (not just Tokyo).

There quite a few one man shops as well.

Good to know! But my point was almost none of these fabled Japanese brands even make their own stuff, they're all made in a larger scale factory that couldn't be sustained just producing one brand's products.

Marc mndt · Feb 18, 2021

jeo said:
I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it's pretty funny that some people have this attachment to certain brands because they've patronized them (sometimes more than once) and feel the need to defend these brands when they are being criticized as if it's an attack on them personally.

It's also pretty funny how some people buy their first serious leather jacket and then claim it's the best quality leather, build quality, perfect fit and what have you.
I think one needs to have at least handled a dozen jackets from different makers before such claims have any value.

Neat stitching is one of the easier things to develop an eye for. Recognizing quality leather is somewhat harder. Knowing about proportions and good patterns takes much more experience. Imo this type of experience can only be gained by owning / having owned a lot of jackets. You can read about jackets all you want, a pattern is something that can only be experienced in the flesh.

Carlos840 · Feb 18, 2021

sweetfights said:
What feels fragile about your Chevalier?? I never thought fragile would be used to describe a Himel jacket.

I think it's a combination of two things.

My "everyday normal" is LW 4oz with a no10 Crown or Vanson CXL/Comp Weight with no10 Talon/Vanson zipper.
I think because of that to me the thin Shinki and small zipper just feel pretty fragile.

There is also the fact that the stitching looks pretty weak, all the seams are pulled very tight and showing a lot of thread, i really feel like if i did a "trap flex" or reached forward too hard i could tear a seam pretty easily.
That impression was probably made worst by the pics that where posted of a shoulder tear a few years go.
I would ride in a Vanson or a LW, i wouldn't ride in a Himel... Would you?

Saying all that, i still think my Chevalier is a beautiful jacket, i don't want to sound like i am saying Himel is crap, it isn't.
I just think it's bad value for money.
It a Himel sold for 1500$ i would have more of them. I just think that for 2500$+ i can find better elsewere.

jeo · Feb 18, 2021

Marc mndt said:
It's also pretty funny how some people buy their first serious leather jacket and then claim it's the best quality leather, build quality, perfect fit and what have you.
I think one needs to have at least handled a dozen jackets from different makers before such claims have any value.

100%.

Marc mndt said:
Neat stitching is one of the easier things to develop an eye for. Recognizing quality leather is somewhat harder. Knowing about proportions and good patterns takes much more experience. Imo this type of experience can only be gained by owning / having owned a lot of jackets. You can read about jackets all you want, a pattern is something that can only be experienced in the flesh.

Absolutely. I was a graphic designer for almost 10 years before switching careers and the job is pretty much paying attention to detail. As such I can spot flaws very easily. You just need to pay attention and you can easily develop an eye for those kind of things.

But also, one is a lot more subjective than the other. A wobbly line is a wobbly line, whereas two people can look at the same leather, one can say it looks great and the other can say it looks like shit.

I agree about patterns, you definitely need to have experienced them to know. But this is especially true since the patterns' "success' if you will, changes per the individual, so having experienced them in the flesh as you put it is imperative.

sweetfights · Feb 18, 2021

Carlos840 said:
I think it's a combination of two things.

My "everyday normal" is LW 4oz with a no10 Crown or Vanson CXL/Comp Weight with no10 Talon/Vanson zipper.
I think because of that to me the thin Shinki and small zipper just feel pretty fragile.

There is also the fact that the stitching looks pretty weak, all the seams are pulled very tight and showing a lot of thread, i really feel like if i did a "trap flex" or reached forward too hard i could tear a seam pretty easily.
That impression was probably made worst by the pics that where posted of a shoulder tear a few years go.
I would ride in a Vanson or a LW, i wouldn't ride in a Himel... Would you?

Saying all that, i still think my Chevalier is a beautiful jacket, i don't want to sound like i am saying Himel is crap, it isn't.
I just think it's bad value for money.
It a Himel sold for 1500$ i would have more of them. I just think that for 2500$+ i can find better elsewere.

Having owned several LW in 4oz, I hear you. Being a rider we tend to go with the heaviest leather protection.
I have ridden in my Kensington several times but always thought if I went down the jacket would be ruined.
I have been down in a buffalo Thedi cafe racer, a simple and easy low slide. My Thedi held up well and was barely scratched, surprisingly and happily.

Blackadder · Feb 19, 2021

TheDonEffect said:
Good to know! But my point was almost none of these fabled Japanese brands even make their own stuff, they're all made in a larger scale factory that couldn't be sustained just producing one brand's products.

I wonder where you got the idea that the Japanese brands are made by some large scale OEM manufacturers. Real McCoys make their own leather jackets in house in Japan. The Few was set up to produce exclusively for RM before they split up. Rainbow Country who started out making its own brand after leaving RM makes jacket in house isn't some "large scale" factory although they seem to be making jackets for FW and Jelado as well. FCL and Fountainhead claim to be making jackets in house only. FCL's predecessor High Large was definitely a small workshop producing its own leather jackets. I have been to the HL workshop. Tenjin is definitely a made to order workshop. I also don't think Addict are made in a large scale OEM factory.
I think it is possible that you got the idea from reading about Y'2 leather but Y'2 does not make leather jackets for any of the brands frequently mentioned here.

TheDonEffect · Feb 19, 2021

Blackadder said:
I wonder where you got the idea that the Japanese brands are made by some large scale OEM manufacturers. Real McCoys make their own leather jackets in house in Japan. The Few was set up to produce exclusively for RM before they split up. Rainbow Country who started out making its own brand after leaving RM makes jacket in house isn't some "large scale" factory although they seem to be making jackets for FW and Jelado as well. FCL and Fountainhead claim to be making jackets in house only. FCL's predecessor High Large was definitely a small workshop producing its own leather jackets. I have been to the HL workshop. Tenjin is definitely a made to order workshop. I also don't think Addict are made in a large scale OEM factory.
I think it is possible that you got the idea from reading about Y'2 leather but Y'2 does not make leather jackets for any of the brands frequently mentioned here.

My apologies, I made a reckless, over generalizing comment, you are indeed right. Point I was trying to make is that alot of these Japanese brands will outsource the work, and my description of who they commission out to was an over exaggeration.

But I'm not being entirely inaccurate, as FW do not make their own stuff, along with other brand I have long forgotten about, alot of times they're here today and gone tomorrow, so that's where the idea came from. But my comment painted companies like FCL under that false brush, so again my apologies, but there's a sense in the marketing that Yoshi makes the jackets, but it at best is his shop in Tokyo, but with how many of his jackets are out there it has to be a decent sized team or outsourcing that's typical within that industry.

Monitor · Feb 19, 2021

Carlos840 said:
There is also the fact that the stitching looks pretty weak, all the seams are pulled very tight and showing a lot of thread, i really feel like if i did a "trap flex" or reached forward too hard i could tear a seam pretty easily.
That impression was probably made worst by the pics that where posted of a shoulder tear a few years go.
I would ride in a Vanson or a LW, i wouldn't ride in a Himel... Would you?

That's a good topic for, well, another topic but leather jackets by some makers indeed do feel fragile even though there isn't any discernible reason why this would be so. While we can definitely agree that every piece of outerwear discussed here is well made, some of the jackets I have handled did strike me as feeling very flimsy while others, perhaps put together in a lighter leather, appeared indestructible. Odd.

navetsea · Feb 19, 2021

is it the size of the zipper and the feel of it the first indication? if the zipper feel chunky and smooth probably you already feel the jacket can take on anything

Tom71 · Feb 19, 2021

This thread has been running for so long that my reservation to participate withers away. I have some very basic thoughts on the whole issue.

1.
For me, "overhyped" is something completely different than "overprized".

2.
"Overhyped", again just IMO, is something that is "not as good as everybody claims". That is of course a purely subjective notion. This subjectivity has hindered me from contributing so far. I really don´t want to classify something as "overhyped" that Fellow Loungers dearly love.

3.
It seems to me, that TFL is quite a "fashion-oriented" place in the sense that we tend to announce the "maker of the day" frequently. ATM it seems to be Greg, three months ago (and for completely different reasons!!) it was 5Star, before that Lost Worlds (until Stu drew the wrath of TFL upon himself). There is also some negative "Hyping", but that seems to be strangely more consitent in that the names don´t change so much

.
Personally, I find that inspriring and usually find myself jumping right onto the train to see what the fuss is all about. This is costly but mind-broadening to the max. For me, this is what this hobby is all about!

4.
I notice that a lot of comments revolve around "quality" in the sense of "perfection".

This is the most subjective of all my comments: The items I really love are usually far from perfect. E.G. I don´t mind imperfections in a product that is manufactured using a high degree of manual labor. While it is easy to build a machine that produces "perfect" (uniform!) quality all the time, humans will always be subject to the possibility of default.
I find it noteworthy that of the 2 FL jackt I have, I like the one with minor imperfections better. Not BECAUSE of them, but because it´s just more MY jacket AND I don´t mind what others may well see as flaws.

I am sure, this has all been said before, but for me this thread is perhaps the essence of what TFL is all about.

red devil · Feb 19, 2021

Monitor said:
That's a good topic for, well, another topic but leather jackets by some makers indeed do feel fragile even though there isn't any discernible reason why this would be so. While we can definitely agree that every piece of outerwear discussed here is well made, some of the jackets I have handled did strike me as feeling very flimsy while others, perhaps put together in a lighter leather, appeared indestructible. Odd.

Out of my jackets, LW feels indestructible, my first one was immediately a "beater" jacket despite the price. Never felt I had to baby it like some others. I have ridden mostly with my tan Thedi as it is so comfortable and feels like it will protect me. The Johnson leather - I have one with forcefield bits, so definitely - and Langlitz feel tough, and reliable.
Actually the Tenjin should handle itself well, and so would the Lewis leather even if it is on the lighter side at around 2.2kg.
But that is only feeling, because according to professionals in motrocycle garments, veg tanned leathers are nowhere near chrome tanned ones in abrasion resistance.
So that would make the lighter Lewis a better choice for motorcycling from that aspect (abrasion resistance) to the heavier Tenjiin at around 2.5 kg.

Getting back to stitching, that gets more tricky, but I would take clean uniform stitching at a lower count like say Langlitz, over tighter stitching with uneven tension when it comes to durability.

For simply going out, I would wear any jacket as long as I like the design and there are not any jarring flaws

Harris HTM · Feb 19, 2021

I was also a bit reserved to join this thread but this is the personal opinion of someone who has never spent more than 1000e on a jacket:
If I was to spend more than 1500e on a leather jacket then I would expect it to have straight and neat seams. I wouldn't expect anything less, even though it was made by a human. I'd expect that the QC at this price point would be much more strict.
Having said that I think that if I did spent so much and came across some flaws then I'd probably start using the exact same excuses in order to convince first of all myself. And be far more forgiving and open minded - just to justify the amount of money I've spent.
A couple years ago I deliberately topped up my dress shoe and boot collection, moving from the 250-300e mark (Loake, Barker, etc) to shoes costing 3-4 times more. My expectations were really high and indeed when you get your hands into a handgrade C&J you can tell it's better (and more expensive) than a Meermin. However I also found flaws (under an OCD inspection) - or better said, not that more amazing seams compared to cheaper ones - on almost all my more expensive shoes. My first reaction was to justify these "flaws" as an inevitable disadvantage of human intervention.

Marc mndt · Feb 19, 2021

Harris HTM said:
A couple years ago I deliberately topped up my dress shoe and boot collection, moving from the 250-300e mark (Loake, Barker, etc) to shoes costing 3-4 times more. My expectations were really high and indeed when you get your hands into a handgrade C&J you can tell it's better (and more expensive) than a Meermin. However I also found flaws (under an OCD inspection) - or better said, not that more amazing seams compared to cheaper ones - on almost all my more expensive shoes. My first reaction was to justify these "flaws" as an inevitable disadvantage of human intervention.

I can relate to your footwear analogy.

At one point I was very much into top tier footwear and I bought a couple of Edward Greens and G&G's. They're indeed great shoes (especially the last) and sure they're better made than CJs. But I enjoy my CJ's just as much even though they're half the price. I might even enjoy my CJ's better because I'm not afraid to damage them.

For jackets however, I might be tempted to buy something top tier one day. Not because I expect the construction / leather to be better than anything I currently own, but because of some unique design I can't get elsewhere.

Edward · Feb 19, 2021

Monitor said:
Click to zoom in. Ugly-ass jacket, I know, but would you agree that it is pretty much flawlessly, if not perfectly made? And that's a $200 jacket. These jackets are made exactly the same way as any high end garment. So the whole human factor argument is moot. Gucci, Dolce & Gabbana, Balenciaga, Belstaff, etc. all produce insanely well made stuff. Sloppy machining on an $800+ jacket only means amateur hour, nothing more.

I'd also want to compare like for like hides. A fashion jacket like this is almost guaranteed to be lamb. The relative ease with which lamb can be worked (it can practically be done on a standard seweing machine, not the HD models required for hefty hides) compared to a heavy horsehide or steer would mean it's not like for like.

Which is not to saythere isn't a skill in producing these lamb fashion jackets to a consistent standard in the numbers they require, but it is a *different* skillset.

Marc mndt said:
The flimsiest leather jackets I've handled were Italian made LVC jackets (not the ones made by Aero of course). They were made out of lightweight sheepskin or calfskin. The design looked ok from a distance but quality wise they were on par with the average mall jacket.

I remember being shocked by how flimsy the first Wested Indy I handled felt compared to what I was used to. That said, I cut my leather teeth on eighties bike jackets, when heavy meant good, and light was automatically a bad thing. I later bought a goat Wested - much lighter than the goat hide Aero use (one of my favourites), but extremely durable in practice. Would I get on a motorcycle with it? Yes - but only with an armoured, aramid-line shirt underneath.

The biggest thing I've learned over time, having handled all sorts of hides (and at all sots of priced ranges) is which leathers and designs work for me for which applications.... and which pricepoints I'm happy to pay out at, along with what I epxect from them.

Ever think some jackets are overhyped

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