Brandrea33
One Too Many
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This really resonates with me. Thank you for posting this.
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Ever think some jackets are overhyped
- Thread starter Rgcards
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This really resonates with me. Thank you for posting this.
jeo
One Too Many
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Your Thedi, ELMC and FL are top tier as far as I'm concerned even though they might not be in the same price point as other top tier makers.
"...but because of some unique design I can't get elsewhere..."
^ I think this is especially true of Thedi. As far as unique designs go, they are at the top of the game IMHO.
Marc mndt
I'll Lock Up
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I agree, I definitely consider Thedi and FL top tier.
My ELMC'S are nice and in the same price range as Thedi, but not as good in terms of construction and attention to detail.
With something unique (and even more expensive) I had Electric Studio in mind.
Edit: typos
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jeo
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Their leathers sure seem to be nice and what I would categorize as top tier. I'm sure their construction would fall under the category of "good enough" for me. I've always been concerned with their patterns quite honestly.
They definitely have some unique designs!
Although I like their stuff that they do in collaboration with other companies, like this Mushmans.
I’ll have the one with the leaves! We’ll be the coolest cats at the European TFL post-pandemic meet up
Mine has been waiting for me at the workshop for almost a year now. I wanted to pick it up personally as it is bespoke.
They are not as expensive as Himel and the other Japanese makers we discuss here, or were not at least. Not sure what the current pricing is like
They are not as expensive as Himel and the other Japanese makers we discuss here, or were not at least. Not sure what the current pricing is like
Marc mndt
I'll Lock Up
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Damn @red devil , that's a true work of art. I want one. I need one
I have at least 3 more jackets I want from him lol
He is very exciting as his style is so unique and his stitching very neat
TheDonEffect
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Wow, who's the maker?
TheDonEffect
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I just want to make sure my point wasn't lost. When I did my own research, I quickly learned that paying 2k+ for a jacket wasn't going to yield me a better produced jacket, or at least a practically better produced jacket. After pouring over everyone's photos of all sorts of makers, and talking with people in the industry, I realized my money would be better served pursuing other qualities because if quality was the objective, the 1k arena is well stocked with that.
What I mean I wouldn't spend 2k+ for a simple half belt for instance in cowhide with YKK zippers. I think this is sorta what gets lost in these types of discussions, whether it's comparing 1k to 500 jackets, or 2k to 1k jackets. In my own opinion, what you're paying for are features you cannot find in the lesser price variants, and often times it's not necessarily quality. Like is a Ferrari built better than a Honda Accord? No, what you're paying for is a combination of other factors: niche designs, custom work, unique materials, etc.
For instance, no one is buying a lambskin, or a no name stock naked cowhide leather in a stock size from a 2k maker. FCL for instance has their own, sorta proprietary HH leather that just looks amazing. Himel is one of the few players in NA that has Shinki.
I say all this not to excuse poor craftsmanship, because at the end of the day it should be made to a standard befitting the price tag. I'm just not surprised by it, which is why I don't buy at those price points. But, if I did, as others understandably have, it's because there are other things that oftentimes the high priced jackets do come with that lesser priced options don't. Like if I had to have Shinki for instance, the options are limited, especially if I wanted a Shinki jacket where I could be involved with the creative process and get a bespoke sizing. And then I have to rely on the skill and effort of the person making this one off jacket, and there opens the door for quality issues. A laborer who doesn't give an F, but does a repetitive task over and over again, while being monitored by a manager can and will execute a high quality seam for instance. They could practically do it with their eyes closed. But when you have a different materials, stitching a different template/pattern, etc, well practice makes perfect.
We had a similar discussion in the 5* thread, if I wanted a CXL jacket, I'm not going to find one for $400, that's practically the cost of the leather itself. And I want it made to measure with some design input? Fuhgetahboutit, we're already shooting past 500, 600, 700, crawling to the 1000 mark.
Curated jacket design with unobtainium leather, with new old deadstock vintage hardware, design input and sizing alterations, well, the price tag goes up quickly.
And all of these factors justify/inflate the increasing price before we even get to... quality.
It's why I try not to fall into the hype train, I try to objectively break down the reasoning behind the cost, even accounting for intanglible things, because for things that have been around like jackets, it's a solved problem, there hasn't been real advancements in this field for some time. It isn't like a smart phone where they just get discernibly better every couple of years. Making a jacket has a recipe. Yes, a ton of nuance, but it's not exactly tech. So I kinda chuckle when I hear things like 9 stitches an inch, or chain stitching the hem on my denim. Yeah I get it, to a total geek (and please understand that I'm saying this endearingly because I too am a geek for a lot of things) these are the minute details that really separates things in ones collection, but practically speaking it really doesn't mean squat. I've seen enough poorly executed chain stitches seams that I'm at the point I don't care. It's like housemade ketchup, who TF cares that you made your own ketchup if you're going to charge me for a thimble of it and it's no better, oftentimes worse, then the free Heinz ketchup I get from McDonalds. Ketchup is a solved problem.
I say jackets are a solved problem because I just can't see how a maker can, on average of course, make a better jacket than say... Aero, or even 5* for that matter. It's a solved problem, express to a maker your expectations, pay them a fair price, and out should pop a reasonably well made jacket. I say this to illustrate that I understand when I pay 2k+ for a jacket, I really don't expect that it's going to be any better than an Aero on their A game. It's a solved problem that has variations due to human input. You take the top maker of all the jacket makers, and make them make the same jacket, give them a week to do it, pay them a million bucks, the end result of the jackets are going to be so close to the point it doesn't matter. It's the combination of price, design, time, variation, all that that leads to deviations.
What I mean I wouldn't spend 2k+ for a simple half belt for instance in cowhide with YKK zippers. I think this is sorta what gets lost in these types of discussions, whether it's comparing 1k to 500 jackets, or 2k to 1k jackets. In my own opinion, what you're paying for are features you cannot find in the lesser price variants, and often times it's not necessarily quality. Like is a Ferrari built better than a Honda Accord? No, what you're paying for is a combination of other factors: niche designs, custom work, unique materials, etc.
For instance, no one is buying a lambskin, or a no name stock naked cowhide leather in a stock size from a 2k maker. FCL for instance has their own, sorta proprietary HH leather that just looks amazing. Himel is one of the few players in NA that has Shinki.
I say all this not to excuse poor craftsmanship, because at the end of the day it should be made to a standard befitting the price tag. I'm just not surprised by it, which is why I don't buy at those price points. But, if I did, as others understandably have, it's because there are other things that oftentimes the high priced jackets do come with that lesser priced options don't. Like if I had to have Shinki for instance, the options are limited, especially if I wanted a Shinki jacket where I could be involved with the creative process and get a bespoke sizing. And then I have to rely on the skill and effort of the person making this one off jacket, and there opens the door for quality issues. A laborer who doesn't give an F, but does a repetitive task over and over again, while being monitored by a manager can and will execute a high quality seam for instance. They could practically do it with their eyes closed. But when you have a different materials, stitching a different template/pattern, etc, well practice makes perfect.
We had a similar discussion in the 5* thread, if I wanted a CXL jacket, I'm not going to find one for $400, that's practically the cost of the leather itself. And I want it made to measure with some design input? Fuhgetahboutit, we're already shooting past 500, 600, 700, crawling to the 1000 mark.
Curated jacket design with unobtainium leather, with new old deadstock vintage hardware, design input and sizing alterations, well, the price tag goes up quickly.
And all of these factors justify/inflate the increasing price before we even get to... quality.
It's why I try not to fall into the hype train, I try to objectively break down the reasoning behind the cost, even accounting for intanglible things, because for things that have been around like jackets, it's a solved problem, there hasn't been real advancements in this field for some time. It isn't like a smart phone where they just get discernibly better every couple of years. Making a jacket has a recipe. Yes, a ton of nuance, but it's not exactly tech. So I kinda chuckle when I hear things like 9 stitches an inch, or chain stitching the hem on my denim. Yeah I get it, to a total geek (and please understand that I'm saying this endearingly because I too am a geek for a lot of things) these are the minute details that really separates things in ones collection, but practically speaking it really doesn't mean squat. I've seen enough poorly executed chain stitches seams that I'm at the point I don't care. It's like housemade ketchup, who TF cares that you made your own ketchup if you're going to charge me for a thimble of it and it's no better, oftentimes worse, then the free Heinz ketchup I get from McDonalds. Ketchup is a solved problem.
I say jackets are a solved problem because I just can't see how a maker can, on average of course, make a better jacket than say... Aero, or even 5* for that matter. It's a solved problem, express to a maker your expectations, pay them a fair price, and out should pop a reasonably well made jacket. I say this to illustrate that I understand when I pay 2k+ for a jacket, I really don't expect that it's going to be any better than an Aero on their A game. It's a solved problem that has variations due to human input. You take the top maker of all the jacket makers, and make them make the same jacket, give them a week to do it, pay them a million bucks, the end result of the jackets are going to be so close to the point it doesn't matter. It's the combination of price, design, time, variation, all that that leads to deviations.
TheDonEffect
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Is that... another rabbit hole I see?
Certainly is, only reason I haven't fallen in yet is that because it is currently beyond my reach due to travel restrictions lol
This is the coolest thing posted here ever. Period and end of story.
Just as an FYI when I reached out after RD introduced this maker, I was quoted about 2.5k for the lightning bolt. I looked down, kicked the dirt and shuffled my feet in the opposite direction. Outside my pay grade but a stunning jacket nonetheless.
sweetfights
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That would drive me crazy- Nor wearing a jacket for fear of damaging it, especially such a gorgeous-looking jacket with that stunning Shinki.
I wonder if you were quoted such a high price because he was hedging against issues in case you needed to send the jacket back?
He didn't have any sample my size and is not experienced with the western body type. He was happy to have me at hand to make the mock up and then adjust it as needed, we did spend about an hour adjusting the mock up with needles.
jeo
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Most 2k+ jackets will not yield a practically better produced jacket in terms of longevity, but it will absolutely yield a better produced jacket visually i.e. cleaner looking execution and therefore overall cleaner looking jacket.
Yes, this was my contention why my Himels were still worth it to me.
Of course it does! These things make a huge difference visually and those are the things that should separate a $1k jacket and $2k+ jacket. To me it's as clear as night and day when I see the $1k jackets (insert any maker in that range) right next to very top tier makers in terms of the overall look of the jacket. Those are the things that people expect and pay for when buying a 2k+ jacket.
Yeah I highly disagree. Again, if you're talking about basic practicality like longevity, then you're absolutely right, but you can't tell me that Aero or 5* makes a jacket as good and as cleanly as RMC, RC or FW (others too)
You give any maker at Aero all the money in the world and they will never be able to achieve the level of perfection some of these Japanese brands achieve. They just don't have the skill. You give them the correct tools and all the time in the world to achieve the skill, yes they will probably be able to.
dudewuttheheck
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@red devil wow that jacket is so gorgeous! A shame you haven't been able to pick it up yet. I cannot wait to see more of that jacket.
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