“An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” ~ John F. Kennedy

Carlos840 said:

Pretty much what happened to me.
When i received my Himel i instantly knew it wasn't perfect, but i bought into the whole "it was made by a human" BS, i bought into the hype...
I had only handled about 10 leather jackets at that point, i now own around 50.
I had just spent 2300$ on a super fancy jacket, i wanted to be happy with it.
It's only with the years, the experience, owning better made jackets that i came to the conclusion that my Himel was worst than what i had originally thought. At some point that jacket stop being "A HIMEL" in my eyes, it just became a leather jacket, that i started to objectively analyse, that's when the flaws became more important than the story.

I bought that jacket in early 2018, what do you want me to do?
Contact Himel today and tell him "You remember that jacket you made me three years ago that i was happy about? Well i now think it's not as good as i thought it was and i never wear it, could you please remake it for me?"
Add to that the fact that a remake would cost "someone" around 1000 dollars in shipping back and forth and customs.
I personally am not ready to spend any money on having a remake, i doubt Himel will send me a shipping label to get it back, and then send the replacement with tax paid.... (if he does i won't say no though!)
I didn't want to be that guy, IMO it is worst.

I didn't contact Himel because i didn't really care or want a new jacket, i don't care about the Shinki hype anymore, i don't care about the Himel hype anymore, i enjoy the Chevalier visually, but i never wear it.
I didn't want to start possible drama with Himel to get a new jacket, but i didn't feel like i had to lie about the "superior craftsmapship" either...
After seeing all these "Himel is a genius" videos at some point i just thought "screw it" and decided to show the other side of the coin.

In the end the way i see it a maker should never send out something he wouldn't want photographed or seen in public.
Dave saw this jacket, inspected it and though "yes, this is good enough to bear my name".
The second he does that i shouldn't feel any shame to publicly show what he sent me.

Imagine a client comes to me asking me to put a bass line on a song, i take his money, record the track with mistakes in it think "meeh, he won't notice", send it to him.
He puts the track online, everybody hears my mistakes, people complain that "this bass player dude sends track with mistakes on them to people"
Should i get angry at the guy for putting my mistakes online? Or should i have sent him a track with no mistakes?
IMO the second i send the track i am ready for the world to hear it, same thing with a leather jacket, the second the maker ships it he should be ready for pics of it to end up on the cover of Vogue Magazine.

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This is an excellent post and one that's very important. The part about not knowing what makes a good jacket right away is crucial.
Many people will not spend so much time going through countless jackets to figure out what's what and that's okay. Many people wouldn't be able to tell the difference even if they did, as evidenced by a lot of posts on TFL and that's perfectly fine too. Which is why many people buy into the hype and many people fall for it and that's precisely why being critical about certain makers that are held on a pedestal of Gods - Status Aero was enjoying for years on TFL - is absolutely crucial.
Anyway, regardless of what I'm buying, I want to get the best deal for my money. Without guys like you, all I'd have to base my decision on is hype and marketing. And I don't want to be had. Let me make up my own mind and weigh the cons vs. pros.

Himel has a lot going on without the perfect stitching & given a choice, I personally would much rather own anything by them than by FCL, Addict, etc. But I want to be able to make up my mind on my own & not because the owner of the company is telling me their stuff is the best.

Remember Diamond Dave? His stuff was regarded as the Second coming and I'm fairly certain Carlos' review and subsequent discussion was a deciding factor in putting an end to that. Rightfully so because while I never owned a DD jacket, I could plainly see that guy's peddling badly made junk. Many of his jackets were amateur hour & to this day, I cannot understand what the hell was it that generated all that hype. Carlos got jackets with holes. That other dude got a jacket he can't freaking zip up all the way, even after the initial zipper fell apart!

Well, okay, where am I going with this? I don't know but I do know this post is important.

The point is, we all learn. Same as we learned there are better makers out there than H&M, through time and experience, Carlos learned there are better makers out there than Himel.

Carlos840 said:

It doesn't cause me grief, i enjoy it for what it is to me, great wall art.
It's a beautiful design, made from beautiful leather, i just don't get enjoyment from wearing it.
But it is currently one of the three jackets that i have at the front of the rails so that i can see it everytime i go up or down the stairs. I really enjoy having it, just not using it as a jacket... (weird i know)

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I know you said you aren't satisfied but is it really that bad that you won't wear it?

That seems really extreme. I don't remember the jacket fitting you bad or anything like that. I can't speak for the flaws because I don't remember either seeing any glaring deffect.

For example in my case the sample Grizzly isn't perfect, far from it but it's that, a sample so it comes with the territory. I would be shocked to see any final product come with the same flaws that mine had.


EDIT: I just saw the Chevalier thread updated. Nevermind.

Monitor said:

Same as we learned there are better makers out there than H&M

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Let’s not jump to conclusions. I haven’t received it yet

Becoming unhappy after years of owning the jacket it’s a bit of a different case I suppose. I wouldn’t contact the maker probably just move it on. I don’t see the point in owning something that I don’t really like.

Anyway, I think the question in the opening post applies only immediately after receiving a custom order. I don’t know, for the way I am, if the jacket is structurally sound, done to my specs and it fits me within reason I’d just keep it and move on. If I think the maker overlooked something I will likely simply not order from him again. Will I make noise online? I don’t know but in any case I just don’t trust online reviews that much. I need to try first hand. BK is the devil according to many accounts on this forum, in my case it was the same as ordering from Aero. Just to give an anecdotal experience that clearly contradicts online reviews.

Although honestly, I don’t see myself going bespoke, it’s not a route that brings me more joy or significantly better fit results. There is undeniably a bit of hype also in going custom imho. Most people don’t really need it.

To the original question. If you are immediately dissatisfied, and if you have a particular remedy you think is reasonable, I think it is appropriate to contact the manufacturer. If you just think it isn't as nice as you thought it would be, and returns are not possible, then I think it is reasonable to discuss the general quality of an item on a forum like this. For example if the leather panels are mismatched in color , I think its appropriate to point this out to the manufacturer. On there hand , if it's a loose thread or a seam that is slightly less than straight, I think it's pretty difficult to demand that someone cuts a loose thread for you. Part of this forums purpose is to share the general impressions of a jacket, and if they are somewhat unimpressive so be it.
In regard to something that is evaluated differently over time, again this forum is about sharing impressions. In regards to carlos jacket, or mine for that matter, it isn't really reasonable to say," do a better job overall" without a specific item you want fixed. In that case the manufacturer is at the mercy of his own quality control. If it isn't the best, the members of this forum are not responsible for covering that up, in fact part of this forum is to promote the manufacturer who provide the best price and quality.

ton312 said:

Let’s not jump to conclusions. I haven’t received it yet

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LOL

Mich486 said:

There is undeniably a bit of hype also in going custom imho. Most people don’t really need it.

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I don't buy custom because OTR doesn't fit. The OTR options are limited in terms of design / style.
It has nothing to do with hype.

I disagree Marc... most custom jackets seen here have an OTR counterpart. They are all repros of some sort or a mishmash of 30s-50s designs. I’d say this is quite an objective statement.

I appreciate that some people like having an input in things like liners, stitch colour etc. I enjoyed the process too when I got into higher leather jackets at first. Over time though I found that the process doesn’t bring me palpably better results. I can find what I like OTR. Certainly that is also largely due to the fact that I fit into most size 38-40. This is instead clearly subjective.

First, the 8,000 pound gorilla in the room: Was my original post a backhanded way of disparaging @Carlos840 . . . absolutely not and I apologize if it came across that way! Was my internal contemplation of the issue motivated in part by @Carlos840 ’s election not to contact Dave . . . of course it was. However, as @Carlos840 and others have correctly noted, @Carlos840 ’s circumstances were rather unique. He did not fully discern the flaws until much later, at which point is would have been rather awkward to contact Himel – not impossible, but certainly not as seamless (pun intended) as reaching out to him shortly after receiving the jacket. I did not initiate this thread to discuss a unique situation and, hence, I did not mention @Carlos840 ’s circumstances in my post, nor criticize him in any way, shape, or form. Rather, I started this thread to discuss a much broader and more universally applicable issue that transcends @Carlos840 and affects us all.

Additionally, I did not pass judgment on anyone that elects to publicly criticize a manufacturer without first communicating with the manufacturer. To the contrary, I presented both sides of the debate as fairly as I could. I also conceded that I have criticized manufactures without first communicating with them. Therefore, had my purpose been to disparage @Carlos840 , I would also be disparaging myself, much like the pot calling the tea kettle black.

The discussion has been very interesting. Some appear to believe that the release of a jacket with flawed workmanship evidences a complete absence of QC and a wholesale lack of concern by the manufacturer. Maybe so. However, I personally suspect that most manufacturers employ some manner of QC and flaws that evade their QC are likely the product of isolated lapses as opposed to a broader disregard. Of course, if a particular manufacturer regularly distributes flawed jackets, that suggests a more systemic problem and/or absence of QC as opposed to an isolated lapse.

Someone suggested that we instinctively pursue both tracks simultaneously, reaching out to the manufacturer while concurrently posting about our evolving experience. That is certainly an option. However, IMHO, it falls into the “not contact the manufacturer” first category because the criticism is out there before the manufacturer has an opportunity to remedy the situation.

Someone else suggested that the decision depends on whether the manufacturer is likely to remedy the problem. That places the cart before the horse. Absent an obviously unreasonable critique advanced by the customer, good manufacturers should be willing to go the extra mile to make customers happy -- particularly manufacturers charging over $1,000 for a jacket, and even more so for manufacturers charging over $2,000. You might be surprised by what the manufacturer will do to remedy an issue and/or ensure a happy customer. On the other hand, you might be right and the manufacturer might refuse assistance. You will never know until you reach out. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. The worst thing the manufacturer can do is say no, in which case you have gained valuable insight for future purchase decisions.

As I said upfront, I am not passing judgment on anyone, nor am I in a position to do so given my past record. Rather, my goal was solely to engender a discussion regarding a broad and universally applicable issue that most of us must confront now and then as we venture down similar paths.

Mich486 said:

I disagree Marc... most custom jackets seen here have an OTR counterpart. They are all repros of some sort or a mishmash of 30s-50s designs. I’d say this is quite an objective statement.

I appreciate that some people like having an input in things like liners, stitch colour etc. I enjoyed the process too when I got into higher leather jackets at first. Over time though I found that the process doesn’t bring me palpably better results. I can find what I like OTR. Certainly that is also largely due to the fact that I fit into most size 38-40. This is instead clearly subjective.

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For me custom is a way to get something more unique as well, most of the time a colour / colour combination I can't get OTR. But yes, OTR can get you a lot of good things to start with

Mich486 said:

I disagree Marc... most custom jackets seen here have an OTR counterpart.

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Could you share some examples? What are OTR counterparts of Thedi of Field Leathers for example?

Marc mndt said:

But what if you weren't knowledgeable enough to make a proper quality assessment at the time of receiving the jacket. After a while after having handled numerous jackets from different makers you come to the conclusion that your jacket wasn't what it should have been.

Should you still raise the issues with the manufacturer, even though it has been years since you've received the jacket?

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Marc,
This is a very good question and I’m sure we can all think back to an experience we had with a purchase where we found ourselves in this position.
I have to say I think it depends on a couple things:
One, is the defect something that absolutely should never have gotten out the door, such as a cut, tear, or obvious defect in the leather. If it is something like that then yes I think you would be within your rights to raise this issue with the manufacturer. I also think you should be prepared for them to be unhappy with you and to ask why you didn’t point this out upon receipt.
Two, what is your relationship with the manufacturer? I am certain that if I called John Chapman of Good Wear and told him I had a problem with the Arcadia he made me two years ago he would work with me to address and solve the issue. I am equally certain that if I called Stuart of LW he would maintain that any issues were not his fault and maybe offer to repair the problem and maybe he wouldn’t. I am damn sure he would not offer to cover shipping costs because I have been there with him.
I guess I think it is never too late to raise these issues with the manufacturer as long as one has realistic expectations when doing so.

Many well thought out answers. Mine is brief. Yes, discuss it first, then share the customer service experience whether it be positive or negative.

Marc mndt said:

Could you share some examples? What are OTR counterparts of Thedi of Field Leathers for example?

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“Most” clearly doesn’t mean “all”.

Thedi is indeed quite unique but more in terms of finishing of the leather, canvas/leather combinations etc. rather than design. Most Thedi designs are strongly influenced by a particular vintage jacket.

Field Leathers... lovely stuff and great craftsmanship but if one single design of Greg is original and unique and can’t be found elsewhere than I’m blind. Fully bespoke jackets what are if not mishmash of stuff available elsewhere?

By all means, it’s not my intention to criticise anyone that decides to go bespoke, I see the advantages. I did it, probably will again at some point. I just think many people end up buying bespoke jackets that are pretty much available OTR and going OTR saves a lot of hassle when it comes to issues like defects etc. Plus I think hanging around here and reading all the stories about how 0.25” changes the fit, one is sort of led to believe that custom is the only way to achieve jacket nirvana. It is not...

Anyway, I don’t want to enter into a long discussion about this. It was just a side point in my earlier post and quite off topic on its own. Happy to continue using PMs if you want to discuss further

I should clarify when I said flaws, I mean mistakes made by the machinist such as poorly executed stitching and/or seams. You obviously do not need additional QC for those. As said these are not automated process. They did the work themselves so they could not have missed it, they consciously passed it on to the buyer. Perhaps that is within their range of acceptable quality or perhaps they think the buyer would not notice or care.
Flaws such as nick and small cut that came with the leather or caused by transport or storage that are not caused by the machinist may be overlooked. For those you need QC.

I think people need to realize that there are "aesthetical" mistakes and then there's "construction" mistakes. What I mean is that if the wonky stitching or seams don't affect the strenght of the jacket then it's a flaw, an ugly one but not critical to the integrity of the jacket.

Should a visual mistake be passed on to the customer? Well, maybe if a discount was offered and the customer is aware before shipping and accepts it but not otherwise. The maker should just correct it without having to think twice about it, after all it's a premium product at a expensive price, mistakes shouldn't go out the door. They could just sell the jacket as seconds or at a steep discount and I'm sure anyone would buy it but that then affects the image of the brand or maker which I guess some don't want.

Should a structural mistake be passed on to the customer? NEVER

willyto said:

I think people need to realize that there are "aesthetical" mistakes and then there's "construction" mistakes. What I mean is that if the wonky stitching or seams don't affect the strenght of the jacket then it's a flaw, an ugly one but not critical to the integrity of the jacket.

Should a visual mistake be passed on to the customer? Well, maybe if a discount was offered and the customer is aware before shipping and accepts it but not otherwise. The maker should just correct it without having to think twice about it, after all it's a premium product at a expensive price, mistakes shouldn't go out the door. They could just sell the jacket as seconds or at a steep discount and I'm sure anyone would buy it but that then affects the image of the brand or maker which I guess some don't want.

Should a structural mistake be passed on to the customer? NEVER

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Good point. I do focus on structural issues. It’s partly why I sometimes tend to give makers a pass on “perfect” stitching, etc. That said, and I understand that you are not directing your post at him, but I think Carlos’s Himel has both. So he doesn’t wear it. That is the issue in his specific case. I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong, no problem if I am.

Marc mndt said:

But what if you weren't knowledgeable enough to make a proper quality assessment at the time of receiving the jacket. After a while after having handled numerous jackets from different makers you come to the conclusion that your jacket wasn't what it should have been.

Should you still raise the issues with the manufacturer, even though it has been years since you've received the jacket?

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You cant go back if both you and the maker have both decided the jacket was fine at the time you received it, but you can always compare and make assesment if the maker has improved by their latest jacket, if the problem still persists and you feel you want to talk about your past experience I think its fine, what Carlos did by adding new entry to his review is proper to my point of view, anyone can see the first review was made few years back when he received his jacket, can compare his old and new view, anyone can check if the maker of the jacket has improved since or remains the same, or getting worse by his lastest creation and if all this small details relevant to you personally to place an order, or you can tell the maker if you have ocd to neatness so to make cleanest work as best as they can.

Going along in the direction of Maarc mndt's "what if" and Navetsea's answer- What if we change Superfluous's question of "If and when we receive a flawed jacket, should we contact the manufacturer and allow him an opportunity to remedy the error before we go public with our dissatisfaction and/or publicly criticize the manufacturer? ", to a different question?

Months or years down the road, when the subject of one's experience and satisfaction with a manufacturer's craftsmanship or quality control is asked about on a forum, is it bad form for a past customer to share a negative opinion if they didn't reach out to the manufacturer to attempt to have it remedied at the time their purchase was received (and the customer was aware of the issues shortly after unboxing?)

Acknowledging imo there's plenty of room for differing opinions on this subject, I'm really interested to hear how many people would answer "yes" to the first question, but "no" to the second and why. Not trying to derail conversation from the original question, but I think the thought processes answering this one might be enlightening to the nuance of people's answers to the first one .

This thread reminds me of the old VO5 hair shampoo commercial, immortalized by Wayne and Garth.
When I studied marketing many moons ago, before the interweb changed everything, there was an old axiom- If you’re dissatisfied you’ll tell 12 times more people that if you’re satisfied.
Or another axiom we used in our business- the customer may not always be right, but he’s always the customer.
My take on this question.... If you’re pissed enough to want something done about the error or mistake, talk to the manufacturer first.
If it’s a “meh, shit happens” then it’s fair to let others know in the interest of knowledge.