Himel Bros Chevalier bis

Carlos840 · Feb 22, 2021

Superfluous said:
I assume you were not present when DH sent out @Carlos840 's jacket. Therefore, how do you know that Dave "casually" allowed the flaws to leave his shop. Are you familiar with DH's QC protocols? Isn't it entirely possible that Dave is anything but casual about QC, but this jacket somehow evaded otherwise appropriate QC protocols? All manufacturers -- every single one -- occasionally let a flawed jacket out the door because of a QC lapse. Are all other manufacturers also "casual" about such matters or only Himel? Why assume the worst with Himel and employ disparaging ad hominem characterizations to further stoke the fire?

I thought Greg's jackets are $1,600. Separately, as has been documented elsewhere, Greg's jackets are not all "perfect." Was he being "casual" when he delivered an imperfect jacket? I'll answer my rhetorical question: I doubt it. Rather, I suspect he simply made a mistake and did not catch it. All manufacturers -- every single one -- have such lapses and to suggest otherwise is to ignore reality.

I'm not saying your wrong, but I am curious what your source is. Himel claims that Shinki is the most expensive HH on the market. BK once told me that they do not use Shinki because it is too expensive. I genuinely have no idea what the cost is for enough Shinki HH to make a single jacket.

At the time i ordered, people where still under the impression Dave was making his own jackets, it was before he changed his website and removed a bunch of models from it.
He actually told me in a message: "no headaches at all which is how I could sew this so fast".
In my mind Dave had made this jacket.
Not sure if he used "I" as "someone i employ" in that context...

He also said in on of the emails:

"if you want more information about what I do please just ask... best quality best sewing best leather"

Brandrea33 · Feb 22, 2021

Carlos840 said:
At the time i ordered, people where still under the impression Dave was making his own jackets, it was before he changed his website and removed a bunch of models from it.
He actually told me in a message: "no headaches at all which is how I could sew this so fast".
In my mind Dave had made this jacket.
Not sure if he used "I" as "someone i employ" in that context...

He also said in on of the emails:

"if you want more information about what I do please just ask... best quality best sewing best leather"

My understanding is that David does not sew the jackets.

Monitor · Feb 22, 2021

Superfluous said:
I'm not saying your wrong, but I am curious what your source is. Himel claims that Shinki is the most expensive HH on the market. BK once told me that they do not use Shinki because it is too expensive. I genuinely have no idea what the cost is for enough Shinki HH to make a single jacket.

Again, Shinki produces a wide number of differently tanned variation of horsehide, ranging from, well, budget HH, stuff that Diamond Dave and some others use(d) - and - high grade HH that's exclusively used by RMC, Freewheelers, etc.
Check out their site: https://hashimotoindustry.com/en/products_cat/case/

Priciest leather produced by, say, Horween costs much, much more than the cheapest horsehide produced by Shinki so Shinki HH by definition cannot be the most expensive hide on the market.

Shinki is an excellent tannery whose name is sadly used as a marketing ploy by many makers but Shinki does not equal priciest.

So, as we don't know what type of Shinki Himel works in - and we DO know they cannot work in the priciest Shinki tanned leather on the market because that stuff by contract can only be utilized by a handful of Japanese makers - Himel's claim, while technically correct, doesn't automatically mean the leather he works in is the most expensive leather on the market.

I'm not saying here that they're not working in quality Shinki tanned horsehide because they obviously do, that's clear from the photos on their website.

red devil · Feb 22, 2021

VestCoast said:
The wholesale price in the fashion industry is 2-2.5x the manufacturing cost, which is then doubled again for the retail price. So a manufacturing price of $1200 means the retail should be in the range of $4800 if the jacket was made by a fashion house. Considering the overall effort in sourcing material and design, its really a pretty good deal comparatively. Also, as for leather costs, its going to be higher even if the $10/sq ft is the correct figure. Wastage from hide irregularity is going to bump the actual cost up considerably, particularly when you account for the large panels a lot of the designs use.

The fashion industry is a completely different sector from the hobbyist sector we are in though... All of the jacket makers we are discussing here are by deafault better deals here. You can see how the prices jump when there are collaborations for example.

Also keep in ming that fashion brands regularly have big sales at half price.

Harris HTM · Feb 22, 2021

Monitor said:
Again, Shinki produces a wide number of differently tanned variation of horsehide, ranging from, well, budget HH, stuff that Diamond Dave and some others use(d) - and - high grade HH that's exclusively used by RMC, Freewheelers, etc.
Check out their site: https://hashimotoindustry.com/en/products_cat/case/

Priciest leather produced by, say, Horween costs much, much more than the cheapest horsehide produced by Shinki so Shinki HH by definition cannot be the most expensive hide on the market.

Shinki is an excellent tannery whose name is sadly used as a marketing ploy by many makers but Shinki does not equal priciest.

So, as we don't know what type of Shinki Himel works in - and we DO know they cannot work in the priciest Shinki tanned leather on the market because that stuff by contract can only be utilized by a handful of Japanese makers - Himel's claim, while technically correct, doesn't automatically mean the leather he works in is the most expensive leather on the market.

I'm not saying here that they're not working in quality Shinki tanned horsehide because they obviously do, that's clear from the photos on their website.

Slightly off topic: the only time I handled a shinki leather was when I bought my Meermin shell cordovan (shinki) boots. I found this shell cordovan inferior compared to the Horween one. The boots cost 420e. That's quite a difference compared to Horween Shell boots (Carmina costs 890e, C&J above 900e and Aldens here in the EU way around 1000e). Ofcourse the difference in price is attributed to labour costs, different secondary materials as lining, sole, etc, and brand tax. However last week Meermin offered a Horween Shell boot. They offered them at a quite higher price compared to Shinki, 560e. The difference of 140e (or 33%) reflects only the difference in price of the leather as everything else (even the pattern) is the same.

Marc mndt · Feb 22, 2021

red devil said:
The fashion industry is a completely different sector from the hobbyist sector we are in though... All of the jacket makers we are discussing here are by deafault better deals here. You can see how the prices jump when there are collaborations for example.

Also keep in ming that fashion brands regularly have big sales at half price.

Plus fashion brands have overhead costs like rent for their brick and mortar stores, sales reps wages, marketing etc etc.
Their production costs are usually lower because they produce in huge volumes, but overhead is much higher (as compared to these niche brands).

VestCoast · Feb 22, 2021

Marc mndt said:
Plus fashion brands have overhead costs like rent for their brick and mortar stores, sales reps wages, marketing etc etc.
Their production costs are usually lower because they produce in huge volumes, but overhead is much higher (as compared to these niche brands).

I agree its not the same, but this is still speculation. All the makers that are discussed on this forum have some sort of work space and equipment maintenance costs that fashion houses don't have to deal with, because they generally just order their runs from factories. Material costs, particularly for small shops/individual craftspeople like Greg at FL are going to be higher because they don't have the order capacity. I do a lot of hobbyist level leathercraft and the Shinki horsebutt that I buy is in $40/sq. ft range because I only order a couple double butts at a time.

red devil said:
The fashion industry is a completely different sector from the hobbyist sector we are in though... All of the jacket makers we are discussing here are by deafault better deals here. You can see how the prices jump when there are collaborations for example.

Also keep in ming that fashion brands regularly have big sales at half price.

I with you in that the fashion industry and the makers discussed on this forum occupy different areas of the market but I don't believe the difference between the makers here is properly addressed. Aero has been the gold standard in the $1k jacket range and is often recommended for people looking to get into well made leather. They have a significant production capacity and they have a multi-tier system for selling jackets that don't meet their expectations or don't work out for the customer. FL and Himel (Goodwear too, but I'm pretty uninformed about GW) are just not really comparable--the fit process for both of these makers is significantly more involved. Freewheelers jackets, from what I've gathered, are ordered from a factory and are not comparable to any of the above makers.

Himel is in a tough spot because the jackets they make are designed, for the most part, for a single individual. When you run a garment factory, any mistakes that are caught by QC get tossed out. In Aero's case, if it doesn't meet QC, it lands in the blue label section. When you have a jacket that took 20 hours to make using expensive materials that is designed for a single person, what do you do when your stitching isn't perfect? It's a judgement call. FL looks great, but from what I've seen he spends a ton of time making each jacket. He's already raised prices and his wait list is ballooning because of the Murawski video, but I think it's important to remember that he is breaking into the market.

In the case of FW, the more specialists you have on a production run, the fewer mistakes you're going to have. Clearly they can afford to have their jackets built to exacting standards. Its worth noting they pretty much only make stock sizes as well, which is much easier to control and sell.

Superfluous · Feb 22, 2021

red devil said:
The fashion industry is a completely different sector from the hobbyist sector we are in though... All of the jacket makers we are discussing here are by deafault better deals here. You can see how the prices jump when there are collaborations for example.

There are at least three different distribution models present in the leather jacket sector, each with very different pricing considerations.

First, you have the third party retail distribution model, whereby a manufacturer sells all of its jackets through third party retailers and does not engage in any direct sales to customers. With this model, there are two distinct profit margins: (1) the manufacturer's profit upon the sale to the retailer; and (2) the retailer's profit upon the sale to the customer.

Second, on the other end of the spectrum, you have the direct sales model, whereby a manufacturer only sells directly to the public and has no third party retailers. With this model, there is only one pricing margin -- the manufacturer's profit upon the sale to the customer -- and, therefore, this model often produces better pricing for customers (subject, of course, to other factors, including economies of scale, etc.). Good Wear and Field Leathers are examples of this model.

Third, you have the hybrid companies that engage in both third party retail sales and direct sales. Although these manufacturers offer direct sales to customers, they cannot discount the jackets sold through direct sales because that will undermine their retailers and the retailers will discontinue the line. Therefore, in most instances you do not save (much) by purchasing directly from hybrid companies as opposed to purchasing the same jackets from their retailers (subject to certain variables, including currency exchange rates, etc.). To the contrary, sometimes you can purchase jackets made by hybrid manufacturers for less money from retailers that are able to offer discounts that the manufacturer cannot offer for fear of undermining the retailers.

Himel is a hybrid manufacturer. Therefore, Himel must establish pricing that ensures a second profit margin for his third party retailers. Moreover, Himel cannot sell the same jackets to customers for meaningfully less without losing his retail outlets. Unfortunately, because Himel is such a small operation, he does not achieve economy of scale benefits that are achieved by larger hybrid operations, including spreading fixed costs over a larger number of jackets, volume discounts for materials, etc. A larger hybrid company like Aero has much greater economy of scale benefits that enable it to offer lower prices notwithstanding its hybrid retail distribution model. Even more so for a company like Schott.

Predictably, the net net of the foregoing factors is that Himel's jackets are more expensive than most. Given his hybrid distribution model, there necessarily is an additional profit margin built into the pricing, such that even when you buy direct from him you are paying a third party retail price. To be clear, I am not attempting to justify Himel's pricing. To the contrary, I am merely addressing objective economics. There is no denying that you can get better value -- more bang for your buck -- from other manufacturers, including Good Wear. Of course, that is why there is a multi-year wait for Good Wear.

Marc mndt · Feb 23, 2021

VestCoast said:
I agree its not the same, but this is still speculation.

I'm not speculating. I used to work in the luxury fashion business. I could simply take an item and look up costs in the inventory system.

dudewuttheheck · Feb 23, 2021

Marc mndt said:
I'm not speculating. I used to work in the luxury fashion business. I could simply take an item and look up costs in the inventory system.
View attachment 312410

red devil · Feb 23, 2021

Superfluous said:
There are at least three different distribution models present in the leather jacket sector, each with very different pricing considerations.

First, you have the third party retail distribution model, whereby a manufacturer sells all of its jackets through third party retailers and does not engage in any direct sales to customers. With this model, there are two distinct profit margins: (1) the manufacturer's profit upon the sale to the retailer; and (2) the retailer's profit upon the sale to the customer.

Second, on the other end of the spectrum, you have the direct sales model, whereby a manufacturer only sells directly to the public and has no third party retailers. With this model, there is only one pricing margin -- the manufacturer's profit upon the sale to the customer -- and, therefore, this model often produces better pricing for customers (subject, of course, to other factors, including economies of scale, etc.). Good Wear and Field Leathers are examples of this model.

Third, you have the hybrid companies that engage in both third party retail sales and direct sales. Although these manufacturers offer direct sales to customers, they cannot discount the jackets sold through direct sales because that will undermine their retailers and the retailers will discontinue the line. Therefore, in most instances you do not save (much) by purchasing directly from hybrid companies as opposed to purchasing the same jackets from their retailers (subject to certain variables, including currency exchange rates, etc.). To the contrary, sometimes you can purchase jackets made by hybrid manufacturers for less money from retailers that are able to offer discounts that the manufacturer cannot offer for fear of undermining the retailers.

Himel is a hybrid manufacturer. Therefore, Himel must establish pricing that ensures a second profit margin for his third party retailers. Moreover, Himel cannot sell the same jackets to customers for meaningfully less without losing his retail outlets. Unfortunately, because Himel is such a small operation, he does not achieve economy of scale benefits that are achieved by larger hybrid operations, including spreading fixed costs over a larger number of jackets, volume discounts for materials, etc. A larger hybrid company like Aero has much greater economy of scale benefits that enable it to offer lower prices notwithstanding its hybrid retail distribution model. Even more so for a company like Schott.

Predictably, the net net of the foregoing factors is that Himel's jackets are more expensive than most. Given his hybrid distribution model, there necessarily is an additional profit margin built into the pricing, such that even when you buy direct from him you are paying a third party retail price. To be clear, I am not attempting to justify Himel's pricing. To the contrary, I am merely addressing objective economics. There is no denying that you can get better value -- more bang for your buck -- from other manufacturers, including Good Wear. Of course, that is why there is a multi-year wait for Good Wear.

That is my understanding as well, although, many more makers are in the hybrid section, as I believe they need both revenue streams to survive, I can easily name some in alphabetical order:

- Aero
- Electrical Leather Studio
- Four Speed Leathers
- Johnson Leathers
- Langlitz
- Vanson

For all of these the collaborations are more expensive than ordering direct. The key differentiator being that the collaboration brings something to the table - a specific design or a special hide most of the time.

The D pocket from ELS - Daredevil - for example can only be ordered through Mushmans. I did ask about getting a d pocket direct, and it will have to be a new design that we can think about together. But that one will likely become part of the ELS line-up. We will see how it goes

Marc mndt · Feb 23, 2021

red devil said:
That is my understanding as well, although, many more makers are in the hybrid section, as I believe they need both revenue streams to survive, I can easily name some in alphabetical order:

- Aero
- Electrical Leather Studio
- Four Speed Leathers
- Johnson Leathers
- Langlitz
- Vanson

Not to forget Thedi. They have lots of (OTR) stockists in Europe. Thurston Bros in North America. Vintage by N&S in China.

VestCoast · Feb 23, 2021

Marc mndt said:
I'm not speculating. I used to work in the luxury fashion business. I could simply take an item and look up costs in the inventory system.
View attachment 312410

I'm sure that history gives you a lot of insight into the industry side, but you compared the overhead of the luxury model with niche maker model, which still seems to speculate on the overhead costs of the niche makers.

Marc mndt · Feb 23, 2021

VestCoast said:
I'm sure that history gives you a lot of insight into the industry side, but you compared the overhead of the luxury model with niche maker model, which still seems to speculate on the overhead costs of the niche makers.

Niche maker overhead:
-rent for workshop at C location
-costs of sewing machine etc
-maintenance of machines
-costs of having patterns made

Fashion brand overhead:
-rent for store at A location
-rent for headquarters
-wages for sales reps / account managers
-wages for staff functions (management, finance, legal, compliance, marketing, designers, buyers etc etc)
-marketing costs (including paying vips to wear your clothing, champagne for your in store customers, sponsoring etc etc)
-warehouse costs / distribution from warehouse to stores
- etc etc

I think it's fair to say overhead for fashion companies is huge as compared niche makers. No need to know the exact costs.

Niche maker:
-High material / product costs
-low overhead

Fashion company
-low production costs
-high overhead

Edward · Feb 23, 2021

Monitor said:
Again, Shinki produces a wide number of differently tanned variation of horsehide, ranging from, well, budget HH, stuff that Diamond Dave and some others use(d) - and - high grade HH that's exclusively used by RMC, Freewheelers, etc.
Check out their site: https://hashimotoindustry.com/en/products_cat/case/

Priciest leather produced by, say, Horween costs much, much more than the cheapest horsehide produced by Shinki so Shinki HH by definition cannot be the most expensive hide on the market.

Shinki is an excellent tannery whose name is sadly used as a marketing ploy by many makers but Shinki does not equal priciest.

So, as we don't know what type of Shinki Himel works in - and we DO know they cannot work in the priciest Shinki tanned leather on the market because that stuff by contract can only be utilized by a handful of Japanese makers - Himel's claim, while technically correct, doesn't automatically mean the leather he works in is the most expensive leather on the market.

I'm not saying here that they're not working in quality Shinki tanned horsehide because they obviously do, that's clear from the photos on their website.

There does seem to be a lot of confusion with Shinki hide, in that a lot of views I read online suggest it's a single product when, in reality, it is, as you note, a tannery that has multiple products. I've only handled one Shinki jacket - a sample jacket made by Aero. Aero decided not to stock Shinki, I understand, because they require a certain quantity guaranteed which didn't work for Shinki at their end. (The one I've handled was very nice, fwiw, very much a mid-weight. Lovely hide, but in terms of subjective preference it's not going to appeal to someone whose favourite is CXL FQHH from Horween, for example.) I'm sure they do have some very pricey hides; I wonder if part of the price represents an 'exclusivity' factor if it's not made in huge batches? Which is not to denigrate quality, of course, but I think we all knoe there's more thanjust quality a factor in market price on any product. (Genuine question - I make no pretence of knowing one way or the other.)

VestCoast · Feb 23, 2021

Marc mndt said:
Niche maker overhead:
-rent for workshop at C location
-costs of sewing machine etc
-maintenance of machines
-costs of having patterns made

Fashion brand overhead:
-rent for store at A location
-rent for headquarters
-wages for sales reps / account managers
-wages for staff functions (management, finance, legal, compliance, marketing, designers, buyers etc etc)
-marketing costs (including paying vips to wear your clothing, champagne for your in store customers, sponsoring etc etc)
-warehouse costs / distribution from warehouse to stores
- etc etc

I think it's fair to say overhead for fashion companies is huge as compared niche makers. No need to know the exact costs.

Niche maker:
-High material / product costs
-low overhead

Fashion company
-low production costs
-high overhead

This is a good comparison but I think in the case of the smaller makers (Himel, GW, FL, Thedi) a lot of overhead is undefined. Its easier to break out and compartmentalize the fashion industry because of the scale (and your experience in it), but in the case of FL for example Greg is maintaining his own website, doing the equivalent of advertising/marketing by running his IG with jacket build photos etc., as well as handling customer correspondence product mailing.

For what it's worth, I didn't intend for my post to be a call out in any way--I appreciate the contributions that more active members (like you) make, and enjoy the discussions quite a bit. And speaking of FL, your recent jacket is top notch and the fit is one of your best.

red devil · Feb 23, 2021

VestCoast said:
This is a good comparison but I think in the case of the smaller makers (Himel, GW, FL, Thedi) a lot of overhead is undefined. Its easier to break out and compartmentalize the fashion industry because of the scale (and your experience in it), but in the case of FL for example Greg is maintaining his own website, doing the equivalent of advertising/marketing by running his IG with jacket build photos etc., as well as handling customer correspondence product mailing.

For what it's worth, I didn't intend for my post to be a call out in any way--I appreciate the contributions that more active members (like you) make, and enjoy the discussions quite a bit. And speaking of FL, your recent jacket is top notch and the fit is one of your best.

I kind of lost the flow here, what is your point exactly?

Marc mndt · Feb 23, 2021

VestCoast said:
For what it's worth, I didn't intend for my post to be a call out in any way--I appreciate the contributions that more active members (like you) make, and enjoy the discussions quite a bit. And speaking of FL, your recent jacket is top notch and the fit is one of your best.

That's cool, these are great discussions and I appreciate your input. There's a lot of things I don't know about so please keep on challenging me

Thanks for your complement, or actually it's a compliment to Greg's work.

VestCoast · Feb 23, 2021

red devil said:
I kind of lost the flow here, what is your point exactly?

Previous page in this thread has some discussion over profit margins and jacket production costs, particularly re: Himel. I think the post below captures what I'm responding to.

Will Zach said:
^^
Bingo. On a $2300 Himel, the shinki leather costs the maker about $500. Liner, hardware - maybe $150. Somehow, in this pretty healthy profit margin the maker should be able to include quality labor. This is truly a shame. Complacency. Disregard for the customer. Over there, Greg Field is sweating bullets, nervous as all hell whether his perfectly made jacket will meet customer acceptance for $1300, and DH casually sends out sloppy work for $2300. Buyer beware and draw his own conclusions.

Just trying to point out we don't really know what the profit margin is, particularly because the overhead and operating costs vary between these makers significantly.

red devil · Feb 23, 2021

VestCoast said:
Previous page in this thread has some discussion over profit margins and jacket production costs, particularly re: Himel. I think the post below captures what I'm responding to.

Just trying to point out we don't really know what the profit margin is, particularly because the overhead and operating costs vary between these makers significantly.

True, we can only speculate about this.

Himel Bros Chevalier bis

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