So trivial, yet it really ticks you off.

Zombie_61 said:

Oh, very cynical. In this case, I suppose that comes from years of associating with people who call themselves Christians but really worship "Churchianity", i.e. they go to church on Sunday morning, behave themselves for 45-60 minutes, then go home and go back to drinking and drugging and lying and cheating until the next Sunday; lather, rinse, repeat. Not a whole lot of Pax goin' on around here.

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So being a Christian is a matter of all in or nothing?

I've gotta say, Christians are some of the most judgmental and intolerant people around.

Hercule said:

So being a Christian is a matter of all in or nothing?

I've gotta say, Christians are some of the most judgmental and intolerant people around.

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I don't think Zombie was expecting anyone to be perfect, just not a hypocrite.

As to judgmentalism, in all truth the worst I've ever seen were those of all religions and none who actively seek to hold others to standards they don't even try to meet themselves.

I always remember the challenge in Ghandi's comment - "[your Christians] are so unlike your Christ."

Edward said:

I don't think Zombie was expecting anyone to be perfect, just not a hypocrite.

As to judgmentalism, in all truth the worst I've ever seen were those of all religions and none who actively seek to hold others to standards they don't even try to meet themselves.

I always remember the challenge in Ghandi's comment - "[your Christians] are so unlike your Christ."

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Fair enough, but making such a judgement says more about the one making the judgment than it does those being judged. "you're less of a Christian than I am because you only go to church twice a year and I go all the time." The problem is holding others to your (or even the church's) interpretation of a standard. Worry about yourself meeting your standards and keep your nose out of others' business. What's the line - "Judge not lest thou be judged..."? Christianity (in general not just the modern and varied sects) is full of hypocrisy that way - pick and choose religion - some more consequential than others. Case in point, I've always found it humorous that one of the main scriptures for Ash Wednesday is all about not wearing your religion on your sleeve. So what what do we (well, not me. I always passed on this) do? Smear a great big cross on our forehead with ashes. A small point but hypocritical and humorous nonetheless.

I'm a born-again atheist myself (I'm still waiting for that voice to break the silence. And not that I ever bought into the first century prophet-deity who died on a cross thing - sorry folks, but he didn't.) who has no problem with a Judeo-Christian society. I was raised a Christian and I can appreciate, for the most part, its role in societal evolution. Religion, like politics for me is largely a don't ask don't tell kinda thing, but I will engage on occasion.

Thanks for that Ghandi quote. I never heard it before. It says a lot and I agree with it. In my opinion Christianity hasn't evolved or grown in 2000+ years. It would seem that so-called "Christians" today are more keen to take the New Testament as law and not as a guide to continue and due likewise. So much for a living and vital faith. It's stuck in the first century, and hence the its all to often incongruity with modern societal issues. Gotta stick to those fighting lines don't you know.

Hercule said:

Fair enough, but making such a judgement says more about the one making the judgment than it does those being judged. "you're less of a Christian than I am because you only go to church twice a year and I go all the time." The problem is holding others to your (or even the church's) interpretation of a standard. Worry about yourself meeting your standards and keep your nose out of others' business. What's the line - "Judge not lest thou be judged..."?

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Completely get where you're coming from here. Without splitting hairs, I think the original intent was less judging, and more the "pull out the be, from your own eye before you look to remove the speck from your brother's eye" thing. Similar to the legal position on privacy here in the UK: your private life is no-one else's business but your own.... unless - as happened with one politician in NI some years ago - you're going around foaming at the mouth about the sanctity of marriage, while having an affair on the side... Of course there's a find line between saying to that person "Don't judge" and judging them yourself... When was life ever easy, huh?

Christianity (in general not just the modern and varied sects) is full of hypocrisy that way - pick and choose religion - some more consequential than others. Case in point, I've always found it humorous that one of the main scriptures for Ash Wednesday is all about not wearing your religion on your sleeve. So what what do we (well, not me. I always passed on this) do? Smear a great big cross on our forehead with ashes. A small point but hypocritical and humorous nonetheless.

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Yes, I see what you mean there. I guess it's a bit like clothing that signifies religion - motive has surely to come in with it: is it something you wear for your own religious reasons, or are you making a show of it so other people know your are pious? As you say, not our place to judge, though absolutely I get the humour in the Ash Wednesday thing... (I remember it having completely other connotations at university in Belfast, as, at least in Ireland, it's an exclusively Roman Catholic practice, so obviously anyone who did it to an extent was "exposing" themselves, a whole other can of worms).

I'm a born-again atheist myself (I'm still waiting for that voice to break the silence. And not that I ever bought into the first century prophet-deity who died on a cross thing - sorry folks, but he didn't.) who has no problem with a Judeo-Christian society. I was raised a Christian and I can appreciate, for the most part, its role in societal evolution. Religion, like politics for me is largely a don't ask don't tell kinda thing, but I will engage on occasion.

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Works for me. I've certainly learned a lot about myself over the years from engaging in reasonable discussion with all sorts of people - vive la difference. There is a story that a wise old priest was once asked why God allowed there to be atheists. The priest cocked his head to the side, smiled, and said "My child, God created atheists to show us to do good things without expecting a reward." I'm sure this little fable has all sorts of arguments about problematic theology from all angles, but there's a lot to be said for its intended message of humility!

Thanks for that Ghandi quote. I never heard it before. It says a lot and I agree with it. In my opinion Christianity hasn't evolved or grown in 2000+ years. It would seem that so-called "Christians" today are more keen to take the New Testament as law and not as a guide to continue and due likewise. So much for a living and vital faith. It's stuck in the first century, and hence the its all to often incongruity with modern societal issues. Gotta stick to those fighting lines don't you know.

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The full quote was "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ." Quite the challenge for the modern Christian, for sure. It's very true that there are large swathes of the Christian church still in hock to the idea of rules, clubs, in and out; the letter of the law rather than the spirit. If Himself dropped in today, I suspect there'd be a fair few tables still needing up-ended!

Hear, hear. I feared that I had stepped in it, but YMMV is the rule of the day am I'm content with being disagreed with.

Being judgmental is part of human nature. I think that cynical though he may be, Zombie is probably more disappointed. After all, who doesn't want to think better (by any measure) of their fellow man? Alas it is in expectation that disappointment is so often found, but to each according to his own conscience.

Hercule said:

In my opinion Christianity hasn't evolved or grown in 2000+ years. It would seem that so-called "Christians" today are more keen to take the New Testament as law and not as a guide to continue and due likewise. So much for a living and vital faith. It's stuck in the first century, and hence the its all to often incongruity with modern societal issues.

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I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Granted, there are some Christians who do their level best to take the Bible as literally as possible. That attitude has direct conceptual simplicity in its favour.

There are other groups (and I've met some of their members) who knowingly accept the selective interpretation of a modern-day theologian, or attempt to come up with their own. They tend to be far more flexible and modern in their outlook - but less sure of themselves.

Of course, the first group often ends up being surprisingly like the second, in that some faith leaders present a very selective interpretation or choice of quotations as absolute and unquestionable.

As ever, it's the clowns who stand out!

Edward said:

...

As to judgmentalism, in all truth the worst I've ever seen were those of all religions and none who actively seek to hold others to standards they don't even try to meet themselves.
...

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And then there are those whose social/political perspectives may as well be religions — not subject to reason. Far too often far too many people with whom I generally agree get so ********* self-righteous and cop such a superior tone that I am tempted to slap them. Their inflated sense of themselves blinds them to how they are perceived by others.

Too many on my side of the aisle alienate those who should be natural allies by, well, insulting them. “Virtue signaling,” the opposition calls it. That’s a fitting description.

Talk is cheap.

Artifex said:

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Granted, there are some Christians who do their level best to take the Bible as literally as possible. That attitude has direct conceptual simplicity in its favour.

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Why is it not fair? In my opinion the literalists are the problem. They have not allowed their church/religion grow beyond the time that the scriptures were written. Why was Jesus so revolutionary in his teaching? Because he turned the established religious practice and status quo on its head largely by his progressive ideals and openly accepting those who had previously been shunned by the church and society. Has the church learned from his example and continued in his footsteps? No, not at all. Conceptual simplicity. Sure. Because it's easy and doesn't require anything of anybody. Because the Bible says so, and we all know the Bible is the word of God. Period, end of subject.

Artifex said:

There are other groups (and I've met some of their members) who knowingly accept the selective interpretation of a modern-day theologian, or attempt to come up with their own. They tend to be far more flexible and modern in their outlook - but less sure of themselves.

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Agree, though some denominations seem better at it than others. Interestingly enough, Crossan suggested that the Catholic Church was about 300 years behind the time as pertaining to addressing social issues.

Artifex said:

Of course, the first group often ends up being surprisingly like the second, in that some faith leaders present a very selective interpretation or choice of quotations as absolute and unquestionable.

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The value of faith and the role of churches has taken a big hit in recent years and it has become incumbent on them to, in a manner of speaking, reinvent themselves to appeal to newer generations in the context of modern lifestyles, mores etc. Selective interpretation has been a crucial part of it. In that regard the Bible is pretty amazing in that it has a little something for everybody (there are even salacious bits!). My favorite is that stupid people should be beaten: Proverbs 26:3.

Artifex said:

As ever, it's the clowns who stand out!

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Ain't that the truth!

The dewy-eyed bride is a Presbyterian, a deacon, even. She gets something out of it she gets nowhere else. She has friends there, and most of them I’ve met seem decent enough.

I believe she almost believes in a risen Christ, but I more believe she wishes to believe. After all, this is 2021, and she’s been fully grown for decades, and she was educated at a Jesuit university, where most of those guys looked askance at biblical literalism.

Life is hard, justice is elusive. And then you die. That being the case (as it has always been), it’s no great wonder that there remains a market for religion.

Biblical literalism was very much a minority, niche view in the America of eighty years ago, when mainline denominations held sway -- and it didn't start to mainstream until after WWII. Much of what is taught today as "Christianity" would have been unrecognizable as such to the average American of 1941.

The biggest mistake one can make, religiously speaking, is to assume that all has always been as it now seems to be. And the second biggest mistake is not to realize how faith can be marketed, for particular purposes, just as efficiently as any other commercial article of merchandise.

tonyb said:

Life is hard, justice is elusive. And then you die. That being the case (as it has always been), it’s no great wonder that there remains a market for religion.

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I like that. Well said.

Aus tiefer not schrei ich zu dir...

^^^^
You gonna make me look that up?

"Out of the depths I cry to thee" Psalm 130. There are several very lovely and quite moving musical settings of that text from the late 16th and early 17th centuries, as well as by Bach during the 18th century (I'm partial to the former). A poignant plea for divine help in light of the vicissitudes of life apropos to your comment.

I, myself have invoked it on many occasions. Sadly, always to absolutely no effect. Hence my steadfast atheism.

^^^^
When all else fails, see the chaplain.

I had a minor (kinda) surgery (successful, thanks for asking) back in January at a church-affiliated hospital. The artwork (to be generous) in the photo below was on the wall of the surgery check-in room.

I appreciate the sentiment, but Jesus, Jesus, if you ain’t gonna mask up, I’d rather you wait in the cafeteria.



By the way, JC, I’m really diggin’ the mullet.

I could never drum up enough faith in blind processes to be an atheist. I don't have any issue with anyone else's beliefs, but just from my point of view there's simply far too much design - ingenious design - in this world for it to have magically 'evolved' all by itself. From the tiny biological engines inside our cells that synthesize proteins to the precise tilt of the earth's axis to give us the seasons, from the flight of butterflies to the coded infomation of DNA, nature speaks of a master Designer too clearly for me ignore. And it's beautiful too, so much of it; glorious sunsets, little kittens, a baby's laugh, autumn leaves. Why is it beautiful? Why do I find it beautiful? Why do I have conscious thought and emotion to appreciate beauty and express that appreciation? Why out of, what - mllions of species? - are we the only ones to have supposedly 'evolved' sapient understanding? Why are we special and not giraffes or lobsters or eagles? Outside of God, it doesn't make sense to me.

As Hercule says, YMMV, and its interesting to hear all the different ideas and beliefs expressed here. Nice to get to know folks a little bit beyond talking about hats and jackets! lol

I toyed with the intelligent design idea for a while, but the biggest hurdle for me is that all scriptures are the pen of man. As such, I need unquestionable faith in man, in order to have faith in what is written. I don't have that faith. I don't even believe the newspapers most of the time.

Beyond that, there's nothing tangible to hang my hat on, and I have mixed feelings. Having partially trained in psychotherapy (I did two years out of five, before deciding it's not for me), I view it quite sceptically as a man made concept for control of the masses, however I also see it as a great support for those in emotional need, and a focal point of community cohesion which may be lacking for those (like me) without faith in a deity.

Ultimately I give space for their own beliefs to those who give such space to me. Those who try to preach to me are told that they are telling me my world view is wrong, and they wouldn't like it if I did that to them. Only if they persist, will I set out to prove it.

Benny Holiday said:

Why are we special and not giraffes or lobsters or eagles?

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Every cat I've ever known, looked at me as if I'm the stupid one

I’m not without my own superstitions, but I recognize them for what they are. They get me through the day, sometimes, when I’m at a loss for anything else at least equally effective.

And I’m quite sentimental — downright sappy, on occasion. I can be moved to tears by truly mundane things.

As I noted a few posts up the page, my lovely missus is an active participant in her church. She has good friends there, and she gets something from it she gets nowhere else.

The amount she tithes might just as well be going toward buying me a nicely restored Sunbeam Tiger, say, but other than that, I really have nothing against it.

What I do have something against is the suggestion made by too many that without a belief in a deity a person can have no firm moral foundation. It’s such a juvenile perspective, this need for a heavenly father figure who rewards good deeds and punishes bad ones, without whom a person might think it’s okay to behave in clearly antisocial ways. Big Daddy up in the sky might just condemn you to an eternity of suffering should you canoodle with your neighbor’s wife or steal his livestock or, apparently worse yet, judging by its prominence in the Ten Commandments, fail to adore and glorify Big Daddy himself.

tonyb said:

I’m not without my own superstitions, but I recognize them for what they are. They get me through the day, sometimes, when I’m at a loss for anything else at least equally effective.

And I’m quite sentimental — downright sappy, on occasion. I can be moved to tears by truly mundane things.

As I noted a few posts up the page, my lovely missus is an active participant in her church. She has good friends there, and she gets something from it she gets nowhere else.

The amount she tithes might just as well be going toward buying me a nicely restored Sunbeam Tiger, say, but other than that, I really have nothing against it.

What I do have something against is the suggestion made by too many that without a belief in a deity a person can have no firm moral foundation. It’s such a juvenile perspective, this need for a heavenly father figure who rewards good deeds and punishes bad ones, without whom a person might think it’s okay to behave in clearly antisocial ways. Big Daddy up in the sky might just condemn you to an eternity of suffering should you canoodle with your neighbor’s wife or steal his livestock or, apparently worse yet, judging by its prominence in the Ten Commandments, fail to adore and glorify Big Daddy himself.

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I have plenty of atheist friends who are lovely people. No issue there whatsoever. That said, all of us, no matter what our beliefs, are prone to outbursts of selfish behaviour. The Commandments tell us what we shouldn't do, but Jesus went even further when He said "Treat others as you would like them to treat you." That is, not only don't do bad things to others, but actively seek to help others wherever possible. So the ideal of God is to be completely unselfish. We don't do so good at that though, do we, regardless of our beliefs?

Great thread, gentlemen and madam. I also appreciate getting to know you beyond your views on boaters and cryptids. I was a pagan until I married the Mrs. (Not literally, I just didn’t give the big questions much thought.) Mrs Tiki comes from a very long line of ministers and missionaries. A civil war chaplain and missionaries to China in the 1920s are in the picture. One of the catch phrases of her denomination used to be “God is still speaking” and the denomination certainly moves with the times. I know that Hawaii is a bit different in regard to Churches, but our particular church is packed every Sunday... which amazes me. Very good people, certainly not perfect. But (I believe) they are honestly trying.

If I am honest with myself, I guess I fall into the camp that believes the world is too improbable, too beautiful, too cunningly hidden in its inner workings, too perfectly calibrated, and too filled with miracles —large and small— to be the result of billions of years of random lightning strikes on pond scum that then evolved into the complexity of life and human consciousness. But that’s just me.

I do agree that “the church” has made a lot of mistakes in its day (it being mostly a human institution and all), but that it also fills a need and does many good things in small and humble ways. Our particular church is non-stop food kitchens, homeless shelters, and senior invalid visitations... while also preaching God’s forgiveness and acceptance. Sometimes it strikes me as a bit saccharine and naive, but it does pack them in.

But foremost, I think faith is a very private thing that evolves in people over time. Preaching at people and hitting them over the head with it is generally counterproductive. No one likes to be lectured or takes kindly to it, and understandably so. The people who have impacted me the most over the years were those who quietly led by example.