How many new jackets do you have coming (and how many potential ones)?

navetsea said:

Yes, i understand but if a hide is treated with such nasty chemical nature couldnt deteriorate then i assume the leather end product would also last forever, when compared to a hide treated with natural green preservative, sure it would still be somewhat preserved, but i bet not as long.

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Gotcha, that sounds plausible.

BlueSteel said:

Take Greg for example. He worked for years at Aero using non-Shinki leather. He starts his own bespoke brand and decides to go with Shinki. So are you saying he did that despite it being obvious that the material is inferior?

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I *suspect (just speculation) Greg chose shinki based on the patterns of his jackets, which are quite trim. I also think this applies to most contemporary modern makers who are reinventing vintage patterns and applying modern “slim fit aesthetics” to the design. Greg actually made me my heaviest and arguably finest Aero (minus the small collar) it’s a 50’s pattern, not a slim cut jacket, long gone from my closet:

Personally, I have a hard time distinguishing between some of these mid/lightweight leathers. I cannot tell the difference between my ELMC and any number of Aero Vicenza jackets I’ve owned. They are generically labeled “Italian Horsehide”. They are for all intents and purposes, exactly the same. Not to speak for Ivan but I think I see his point. I don’t know where one ranks Vicenza or whatever HH ELMC is using on the Italian leather grade scale, but I also don’t find the few examples I’ve handled to be significantly different from Shinki. Particularly in the case of a FW Mulholland I saw posted, which didn’t look entirely dissimilar to a skived down version of my latest Vanson comp weight jacket, (don’t throw rocks at me!), with that Vanson hide being almost universally hated, except by myself and a few others.

So ultimately, I suppose it’s whatever floats your boat, but the hype engine fires on all cylinders, and I think that’s what he was trying to convey.

ton312 said:

So ultimately, I suppose it’s whatever floats your boat, but the hype engine fires on all cylinders

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Hi Tony!

If this was the original post I would have agreed with - and even "liked" - that post from the beginning...LOL!

BlueSteel said:

Hi Tony!

If this was the original post I would have agreed with - and even "liked" - that post from the beginning...LOL!

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I won’t place any judgement on makers or buyers. I’ve had such a strange, convoluted and honestly pathetic course through this hobby…I’m in no position. But I don’t think that was Ivan’s intent either! Wasn’t too long ago that CXL was Shinki and Aero was Freewheelers.

marker2037 said:

Which leather are you going with? After receiving the samples from Greg with my jacket I have to have something in the pony brown. It's fantastic.

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I'm going with brown pony. As you say, it's fantastic. His newest batch has some nice grain too.

Monitor said:

there are so many victims to this hype while in reality the best Shinki is at a level of mid-range Italian tanned leather from whatever tannery

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I respect you immensely, but . . . inflammatory statements like this are counterproductive, entirely subjective, and a product of your well-documented anti-Shinki dogma/bias.

To be clear, I do not believe Shinki is superior to any other HH, Italian or otherwise. Rather, I personally prefer the weight, pliability, and drape of Shinki, which admittedly varies, because it is particularly suitable to my warm climate and slender build. My preference for Shinki is not a product of marketing hype, but rather, dissatisfaction with heavy, stiff Horween leathers. I tried on a Shinki jacket at Inspiration and was immediately engaged. I had no idea what Shinki was. I only knew that I liked the weight, pliability, and drape of the jacket, and I hated the weight and stiffness of the Horween leathers that I was encountering.

Respectfully, the broad assertion that those who prefer Shinki have been manipulated and defrauded by marketing hype is disrespectful and insulting to those who favor Shinki HH. Why do you have an insatiable desire to belittle and demean all things Shinki? Again, your agenda is well-documented and any denial is futile.

Moreover, the notion that Shinki -- a tiny, esoteric Japanese tannery known to almost no-one outside of Japan, and few within Japan -- has created mass marketing hype defies rational justification. I have NEVER seen any marketing materials or advertising from the Shinki tannery. Moreover, the Japanese manufacturers that use Shinki -- e.g., RMC, FW, FCL, RC -- are generally very low key about their use of Shinki. Some mention Shinki -- others do not -- but none have a marketing campaign focused on Shinki, and none boast that Shinki is superior to all other HHs. Likewise, the US manufacturers that use Shinki -- GW and FL -- are equally low key about their use of Shinki and do not market Shinki as superior to others. Frankly, Himel is the only manufacturer I am aware of that aggressively markets his use of Shinki and exalts Shinki over other HHs. So where is this purported mass marketing hype originating from that is supposedly manipulating so many uninformed, gullible buyers? I certainly am not aware of it.

There is a reason why many knowledgeable, informed, and well-respected manufacturers use Shinki HH and it is not because the leather is supported by a vast marketing machine. Rather, these knowledgeable, informed, and well-respected manufacturers use Shinki HH because it has certain desirable qualities. This is not a pyramid scheme. The manufacturers that use Shinki are not seeking to dupe their customers. Rather, they genuinely believe in the merit of Shinki leather. Are they all idiots? I think not. In fact, I would venture to opine that most of these passionate manufacturers, who spend the majority of their days emersed in their craft, are more informed about these matters than you.

Isn't it equally possible -- even probable -- that most manufacturers that offer Shinki HH and most people who purchase Shinki jackets made informed decisions, as opposed to being manipulated by mass marketing and undeserved hype, and they genuinely like the leather more than other leathers? Why is this paradigm so offensive to you? Why not give those who prefer Shinki HH a modicum of respect for their choice, as opposed to labeling them a product of undeserved hype and/or a consumer of inferior leather? Why are you so intent on proving your subjective thesis that Shinki is mediocre at best? Why not accept the prevailing theory permeating TFL that comparisons among leathers are predominately a subjective exercise and there is no objective hierarchy?

Again, my respect for you is boundless. You are far, far more knowledgeable than me concerning these matters. That said, IMHO, your ingrained bias has gotten the best of you.

I've handled Shinki leathers which I loved and I've handled Shinki leathers which were underwhelming to me: some felt thin, some looked flat because of a thick topcoat. To me personally Shinki leather is not worth the premium price it goes for. But every Shinki hide I've handled was a quality hide. Definitely not mid range in any way.

I strongly disagree with people who say "Shinki is the best" but I also have to disagree when people say they're mid range as compared to hides from Italian tanneries.

Superfluous said:

I respect you immensely, but . . . inflammatory statements like this are counterproductive, entirely subjective, and a product of your well-documented anti-Shinki dogma/bias.

To be clear, I do not believe Shinki is superior to any other HH, Italian or otherwise. Rather, I personally prefer the weight, pliability, and drape of Shinki, which admittedly varies, because it is particularly suitable to my warm climate and slender build. My preference for Shinki is not a product of marketing hype, but rather, dissatisfaction with heavy, stiff Horween leathers. I tried on a Shinki jacket at Inspiration and was immediately engaged. I had no idea what Shinki was. I only knew that I liked the weight, pliability, and drape of the jacket, and I hated the weight and stiffness of the Horween leathers that I was encountering.

Respectfully, the broad assertion that those who prefer Shinki have been manipulated and defrauded by marketing hype is disrespectful and insulting to those who favor Shinki HH. Why do you have an insatiable desire to belittle and demean all things Shinki? Again, your agenda is well-documented and any denial is futile.

Moreover, the notion that Shinki -- a tiny, esoteric Japanese tannery known to almost no-one outside of Japan, and few within Japan -- has created mass marketing hype defies rational justification. I have NEVER seen any marketing materials or advertising from the Shinki tannery. Moreover, the Japanese manufacturers that use Shinki -- e.g., RMC, FW, FCL, RC -- are generally very low key about their use of Shinki. Some mention Shinki -- others do not -- but none have a marketing campaign focused on Shinki, and none boast that Shinki is superior to all other HHs. Likewise, the US manufacturers that use Shinki -- GW and FL -- are equally low key about their use of Shinki and do not market Shinki as superior to others. Frankly, Himel is the only manufacturer I am aware of that aggressively markets his use of Shinki and exalts Shinki over other HHs. So where is this purported mass marketing hype originating from that is supposedly manipulating so many uninformed, gullible buyers? I certainly am not aware of it.

There is a reason why many knowledgeable, informed, and well-respected manufacturers use Shinki HH and it is not because the leather is supported by a vast marketing machine. Rather, these knowledgeable, informed, and well-respected manufacturers use Shinki HH because it has certain desirable qualities. This is not a pyramid scheme. The manufacturers that use Shinki are not seeking to dupe their customers. Rather, they genuinely believe in the merit of Shinki leather. Are they all idiots? I think not. In fact, I would venture to opine that most of these passionate manufacturers, who spend the majority of their days emersed in their craft, are more informed about these matters than you.

Isn't it equally possible -- even probable -- that most manufacturers that offer Shinki HH and most people who purchase Shinki jackets made informed decisions, as opposed to being manipulated by mass marketing and undeserved hype, and they genuinely like the leather more than other leathers? Why is this paradigm so offensive to you? Why not give those who prefer Shinki HH a modicum of respect for their choice, as opposed to labeling them a product of undeserved hype and/or a consumer of inferior leather? Why are you so intent on proving your subjective thesis that Shinki is mediocre at best? Why not accept the prevailing theory permeating TFL that comparisons among leathers are predominately a subjective exercise and there is no objective hierarchy?

Again, my respect for you is boundless. You are far, far more knowledgeable than me concerning these matters. That said, IMHO, your ingrained bias has gotten the best of you.

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I think you took his generic post a little too personal. It’s just leather man.

My 2 cents… there is definitely some hype around Japanese made heritage clothes (not just leather but think denim and boots) but imho this is the results of consistently delivering a product that can’t be found anywhere else… is all coming out of Japan better or even good? Nope… Much of the best stuff and designs are though coming from there. I keep looking around with a very open mind and for one reason or the other I just find myself with a wardrobe full of Japanese made clothes. They just get it…

Once you reach a certain level of leather than it is more a matter of preference on what you choose. That being said, I do find shinki to be over-hyped in general. I say that while being naturally biased towards Japoanese made goods.
Not all leathers coming out from Shinki is top end, their output is very inconsistent, that has been explained to me by numerous artisans Japanese or not. Some of these Japanese artisans went as far as to tell me they prefer to work with other smaller tanneries that generally have a better product.
Shinki is just a brand name, and nothing more.

In my experience, all branded leathers are overhyped at the moment. CXL was seen as the top of the mountain years ago as @ton312 rightfully mentioned, now shinki is the star of the show, and badalassi is coming up.

In my experience? Nothing beats the moose I ordered from Finland, everything else is inferior leather overly hyped by lifeless marketing blurb made by dishonest people with an agenda

More seriously though, forget about brand names and just focus onwhat characteristics you like about your leathers, I personally go for variety.

marker2037 said:

I think you took his generic post a little too personal. It’s just leather man.

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I always love reading @Superfluous well substantiated views. It's like we're taking part in a public hearing of the 'leather jacket court of law' and a piece of leather of Japanese descent is the accused lol.

Canuck Panda said:

I've bought almost every branded tannery leather, at retail. Some of them are still waiting to be made into jackets. Will make a master post when I get everything back, could be a while.

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I didn't take picture of the Italians (Victoria?) ones, and some other misc. leathers.

@Monitor is correct on the marketing terms. They are just words. I will go into detail when I get my jackets back from the makers. But there is no unicorn leather. No one brand/type/finish is better than the other. If you like the color, texture, thickness, then you are good to go.
The higher price are always inflated by marketing. Not actual customer satisfaction. Maybe resale, but not always.

I should also point out that some maker do take it up one notch by hand dyeing / finishing themselves. I discovered that my GW (bought here used) is like that. Still same aniline Shinki, just more personalized, with some heart. I like. Also less wasteful too.

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Wait, are these all pics of leather you own?
How many sq/m do you have in storage?
That's madness!

Why do people feel personally attacked when someone posts "shinki is the best above all others" or "shinki is snake oil, its no better than any other leather?" They're just opinions; they are not dogma. Moreover, no one is forcing you to choose one camp or the other. You're entitled to reach your own conclusion.

The whole point of a forum like this is to listen (err, read), learn, and engage. Controversial dialogue is GOOD. It forces you to evaluate your own beliefs and opinions. It fosters discourse. Let people voice their opinion, however controversial, and then read and rebut them. But don't take it as an affront to your decisions or life choices. None of this is personal, it's just a hobby. End mini-rant.

Discussions like that is why I love TFL!

Where there is hype, there will soon be an anti-movement. After a while emotions take over facts. And why not?! If we can´t be emotional over leather, what´s the point of this hobby in the first place.
My red line is respect for the makers. What is a hobby for us is a living for them. Of course, they know what they are doing.

On the other hand, @navetsea is totally spot-on re marketing-bla-bla that doesn´t help at all in understanding the specifics of the product but rather disgiuse them.

@Superfluous

First off, you know how much I respect and downright love you, man. So please read this not in a tone that'd as much as suggest argumentativeness or disagreement.

Also this is more a train of thought post than a counter-argument because in essence, I agree with your post.

My comment didn't mean hate on Shinki and I wasn't tryna establish a hierarchy based solely on leather of my preference sitting at the top, all the rest being crap, simply because as I have stated many times so far - something that members who know me even superficially can confirm - Shinki in all its aspects fully qualifies as a leather of my preference.

Thus I am not saying nor have I ever said Shinki is a bad / ugly / whatever hide.

My comment was a jab at the hype that had build up around it. And you cannot possibly be telling me hype ain't real. I believe that you are wrong that the term Shinki isn't like 110% used as a marketing tool in many to ALL newly emerging makers, who happen to get a hold of it.

Also, did you notice how we're seeing a lot more of "Italian leather" lately? In that regard, lemme ask you something, which new maker do you believe would get the attention of the heritage crowd; One that advertises their jackets as being made of Shinki, or other that does not disclose the origin of the leather they use, regardless of how well it looks on the photos?

The mid-range part of my comment came off inflammatory but not because I intended it in such a manner, but because of all the aforementioned hype, you, me (earlier on), and many others have pretty much deified it.

Mid-range Italian leather is beautiful. High-end Italian leather is seriously on another level altogether. This is of course all subjective opinion but the fact, I believe, remains that most people who have handled enough leather, will generally put aside the highest end grade stuff will agree to it indeed being something special.

But sure, let's put Shinki at a high-end side of the spectrum; It's got all the characteristics and it's a gorgeous hide. I've no trouble with that.

What annoys me to some extent is, again, the hype and thus consequently complete disregard for so many other wonderful leather - So well illustrated in @Marc mndt's post in this thread - resulting in all else falling into oblivion. This micro-cosmos of heritage fashion, instead of being a sort of an anti-fashion, a rebel of a sort that wasn't suppose to succumb to any rules, turned into such a ridiculous hype-train of elitism where if you're not doing the exact same thing over and over again, you're doing it wrong - but - that's what you get when normies get a hold of something. But that's irrelevant.

My point is, we often see posts like that here, too. How many times have you read a comment stating that the posters favorite leather is Shinki, therefore they're not sure if the jacket they're inquiring about is as good or holds similar value, even though the jacket is made out of clearly fantastic leather. In 99% of cases, posters favorite leather happens to be the only leather they've handled.

This reminds me; Some time ago, I was reading a discussion that took place in the comments section on Grailed, under the Chrome Hearts leather jacket listing, regarding the price which was little over $7000 at the time. That same jacket now sells for close to $20K. Irrelevant.
Opinions of all kinds were being thrown around but the comment that got my attention was something along the line of "I can get three Langlitz jackets for this kind of money!" to which another person replied that following such logic, they could get 70 Wilson's.
This of course steered the discussion toward the question of quality, with almost everyone involved agreeing that Langlitz has to be a superior maker, which prompted the poster who suggested 70 Wilson's to explain why Langlitz falls short compared to Chrome Hearts. Needless to say, this infuriated me at first but the way they worded the argument left me wondering ever since if what they're saying just might hold some merit. Dude objectively compared both jackets I could not detect any significant bias.

It was a discussion that I would in all likelihood forgot all about had I not, sometime later, acquired a Chrome Hearts leather vest and the moment I unboxed it, I realized the poster that compared Langlitz not so favorably to CH, was indeed on to something - and at the same time, it struck me how much of a victim I was to all the hype built around Langlitz which, to me personally, at this point in time has more cons than pros.

All I'm saying is, research further, research more. Outside of this micro-cosmos where only a couple of Japanese manufacturers rule and where only a handful of styles are acceptable, all else immediately dismissed of being lesser in quality/value (under the pretense of being 'Okay for the price'). As @red devil stated, fashion may appear to be mostly trash but at the same time, a good pieces that emerge leave one wonder what is it that I've been believing in this whole time.

I can correct my previous statement; Shinki can be called a high-end hide BUT you may find something else that will not just de-prioritize it but just might kick it off your list altogether. Don't base your purchases just on a marketing ploy. That of course isn't aimed toward you, Super, as you've dabbed into Vintage as well and you know what you do and do not like (for instance, I really respect your opinions concerning Lewis Leathers as you've reached them through careful research) - I'm just saying that in general.

Last but not least, a photo of my Chrome Hearts vest. Zoom in on the leather. And y'know what, lemme tell you that from knowing as much as I do about you & your preference in jackets, I think that should you be presented with a choice between this hide and, say, RMC's Shinki, with the ability to handle both of course, I'm 99.9% sure you'd say you want your jacket made outta this.

jonbuilder said:

The catalogue does not mention horsehide prices. I notice a curent 1947 style Combia is $1,250. A couple of months back I purchased a green label Colombia in time capsule condition for $1,550 in horsehide. I do not know when Ross change the style of Colombia but the back of my green label does not have the long ducktail kidney support much cleaner styling

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If I recall correctly going with horsehide adds about $1000 to the price of the jacket, which is why we see very few new horsehide jackets from Langlitz. I agree with you about the straight back as well, since I don’t ride a motorcycle appreciate the simplicity and cleaner look.

Wow! That was the most fun debate I’ve read in a while.
My only $.02 is that 1. a little hyperbole is fun and keeps threads interesting and 2. I NEVER want to be on the receiving end of a Superfluous debate. He could prove water isn’t wet.

Carlos840 said:

Wait, are these all pics of leather you own?
How many sq/m do you have in storage?
That's madness!

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The ones came through my door I took photos and measurements. Once I got comfortable with the logistics I had some drop shipped directly to jacket maker to save on shipping and stupid custom duties.

I get the desire for thicker leather now. Where is HH121? He was the first one, buying his own 6oz leather. I just followed.

I couldn't buy any Kokkolan direct (no reliable retail). You and RedDevil bought at wholesale volume and got some amazing hides. I got my Kokkolan from SB. It's really premium stuff.

El Marro said:

If I recall correctly going with horsehide adds about $1000 to the price of the jacket, which is why we see very few new horsehide jackets from Langlitz. I agree with you about the straight back as well, since I don’t ride a motorcycle appreciate the simplicity and cleaner look.

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Horse hides are rare, and less supply. Same with game animal hides like moose. I think cowhide Langlitz would be just fine.

But wait what? You can get a Columbia without the tail? The Langlitz "add 5" to the back length" thing made me lose sleep for many nights. Hope everything turns out fine in 8 months.

red devil said:

More seriously though, forget about brand names and just focus on what characteristics you like about your leathers, I personally go for variety.

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^ This!

Ayeteael said:

Why do people feel personally attacked when someone posts "shinki is the best above all others" or "shinki is snake oil, its no better than any other leather?" They're just opinions; they are not dogma. Moreover, no one is forcing you to choose one camp or the other. You're entitled to reach your own conclusion.

The whole point of a forum like this is to listen (err, read), learn, and engage. Controversial dialogue is GOOD. It forces you to evaluate your own beliefs and opinions. It fosters discourse. Let people voice their opinion, however controversial, and then read and rebut them. But don't take it as an affront to your decisions or life choices. None of this is personal, it's just a hobby. End mini-rant.

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I have no issue with people posting opinions, as opinions. I take exception when people post subjective opinions as objective truisms, and attempt to subjugate/quash other opinions and indirectly demean others in the process. Stating that those who favor Shinki have been conned and manipulated by undeserved hype is disrespectful to those members of TFL that favor Shinki. It suggests that they are uninformed and gullible. That is personal! Respectful discourse is paramount, respectful being the operative word. Divergent opinions are great, so long as both sides respect each other in the process.