What Is the Allure of Japanese Leather Jackets?

navetsea · Oct 28, 2021

Monitor said:
I agree but tradition being a cultural thing, striving toward perfectionism is something that's been associated with the Japanese tradition for a long time now - Though maybe this could just be romanticizing and generalization.
The fact, however, does remain that the most accurately reproduced leather jacket began appearing in Japan, even though the entire repro thing started off in Europe, during the 80's. Just that where others called it a day, Japan took things a few steps further and that's something that cannot be denied.

I think because there are just so many niche hobby in japan, some people concentrate on that niche very closely very meticulously...
but on a wider scale
I remember sony playstation 1, shouldn't that be the pinnacle of console gaming the pride of sony? I have to stand it on its side, put it upside down, to read the disc after some time, and going forward they just sell it as vertical console give it an official stander... almost laughably laziest solution. in anime and manga of course the story of the character is to be the best at what he is doing and with mostly will power and latent talent overcome all the impossible challenges come his way.. I mean Son Goku, Saint Seiya, Naruto, One Punch man... but in real life in sport for example there is very little example how striving for perfection show its result in world stage, compared to china who dominate many sports for years or korean I mean as comparable east asian genetics.
most definitely not in racing their own racing bikes
I don't mean to disrespect japan, but merely observation.

El Marro · Oct 28, 2021

Coriu said:
I can assure you that the majority of my kids are not hard-working, have no interest in farming, and use foul language as bad as any inner city kid.

Coriu,
I don’t think you meant any offense when you wrote this statement but it reads to me as if you are passing harsh judgement on inner-city kids. You close your post by saying that one should not make assumptions based on where people are from, and I certainly would think that applies to those inner-city kids as well.

Coriu · Oct 28, 2021

I'll throw another log on the fire for the discussion. And forgive me if this horse has been beaten elsewhere on the Forum. Recognizing how many wonderful, "real" vintage jackets there are out there, some in amazing condition, what is the allure of buying a one of these "modern vintage" jackets? Is this niche appealing to people who want a vintage jacket, but the perfectionist in them wants the vintage look without flaws...kinda like people who buy new, antique furniture?

Mich486 · Oct 28, 2021

Your assumption that there is plenty of vintage jackets in amazing condition out there is really a hard one to defend.

I think it’s a well established fact that the repro market exists because there is scarcity of the real deal around.

marker2037 · Oct 28, 2021

Fit dialed in to your specs, being the first person to "own" it, the break in process, choosing your own leather, new lining...I can name a dozen reasons why someone would want a new version of a vintage design. Many of the same reasons why someone would rather buy a new Triumph Bonneville instead of messing around with something from the 70's.

Real vintage isn't for everyone and it can often be hard to deal with. I have no problem with people who love the look, but want something new and more practical for themselves.

I can go both ways. I've owned a '75 Norton Commando and they aren't easy to deal with at times. I would own a vintage 70's Ducati in a heartbeat, but I have also owned a MH900evoluzione "sport classic" and loved the allure it gave me of vintage while having modern Ducati technology.

I think jackets and clothing are the same analogy. I only own one vintage jacket, but I would buy more if I found the right combo. However, it's also nice to just be able to contact a maker and say "give me this in these specs" and be done with it, or in this case buy a Japanese repro.

Coriu · Oct 28, 2021

El Marro said:
Coriu,
I don’t think you meant any offense when you wrote this statement but it reads to me as if you are passing harsh judgement on inner-city kids. You close your post by saying that one should not make assumptions based on where people are from, and I certainly would think that applies to those inner-city kids as well.

More than half of my students are considered impoverished, and some of them live with no running water. I made a choice to become a teacher to help them, not judge them.

Coriu · Oct 28, 2021

Mich486 said:
Your assumption that there is plenty of vintage jackets in amazing condition out there is really a hard one to defend.

I think it’s a well established fact that the repro market exists because there is scarcity of the real deal around.

I stated there are "some" in amazing condition, not "plenty." Based upon what I see online, I would feel safe stating that are a good number in reasonable condition...reasonable enough condition that Loungers take time to post them on Finds and Deals.

Will Zach · Oct 28, 2021

^^
For me, it is the thrill of the hunt for a vintage deal. There have been some famous scores at TFL (a $25 Buco at a swap meet comes to mind). They are definitely more rare now as people become more educated, but the thrill remains. Also for me, a jacket costing over $1000 is anathema, so most new modern repros are out.

Claybertrand · Oct 28, 2021

Will Zach said:
^^
For me, it is the thrill of the hunt for a vintage deal. There have been some famous scores at TFL (a $25 Buco at a swap meet comes to mind). They are definitely more rare now as people become more educated, but the thrill remains. Also for me, a jacket costing over $1000 is anathema, so most new modern repros are out.

THIS!!!! Exactly @Will Zach!!!!!

It's the hunt---its the potential Deal----its the "barn find"--- its the one of a kindness---its nostalgia to an era I never lived in or experienced---its the Patina---its the rarity---and for me, unfortunately its also one hell of a HUGE bill to get these jackets professionally cleaned!!!

The best parts of buying a repro (which I haven't ever experienced) I would imagine are the design customization, AND the fact that you don't have to clean it. Arrow Fabricare charges $100 to clean and condition a leather jacket. The conditioning of the leather, I can handle and actually enjoy---but I can't clean the sweat and soil off of a 70 year old jacket liner. THIS is the biggest downside to the vintage stuff IMO.

El Marro · Oct 28, 2021

Coriu said:
More than half of my students are considered impoverished, and some of them live with no running water. I made a choice to become a teacher to help them, not judge them.

That is a great thing you are doing and I commend you for it.

Mich486 · Oct 28, 2021

Coriu said:
I stated there are "some" in amazing condition, not "plenty." Based upon what I see online, I would feel safe stating that are a good number in reasonable condition...reasonable enough condition that Loungers take time to post them on Finds and Deals.

Ok well if I want to get my hands on a j-24 I can wait years for one to pop up in my size (with probably a liner to be replaced and some zipper teeth missing) or I can instantly buy a repro. I guess this is hard to argue against. Am I wrong?

Granted one might enjoy the thrill of the hunt and the restoration process but I don’t think the availability of vintage pieces and repros is even remotely comparable. So I thought it was a commonly accepted fact that’s the reason why a repro market exists in the first place. Your question seems to take the availability issue out of the equation while it really is the source.

marker2037 · Oct 28, 2021

I know I'm never going to find an actual vintage leathertogs so repro is the only way, really. All good by me.

Monitor · Oct 28, 2021

Coriu said:
Recognizing how many wonderful, "real" vintage jackets there are out there, some in amazing condition, what is the allure of buying a one of these "modern vintage" jackets? Is this niche appealing to people who want a vintage jacket, but the perfectionist in them wants the vintage look without flaws...kinda like people who buy new, antique furniture?

It's not about the flaws.

There are two kinds of people in this hobby; People who like the style & buy these clothes based on the price tag and people who are truly all about vintage; Aka, the collectors.
The second group falls into two categories but I'll get back to that.

The price-tag group doesn't want to go through all the fuss of figuring out what's what - and believe you me, there's a lot to learn - so they tend to stick to the pricey repros which are easily graded, classified and a whole less fussy and vague.
Basically, pricey reproductions guarantee you're getting quality alongside the look and that's actually very cool.

The adverse side-effect of the "modern vintage" path is very often perfectionism, and consequently elitism, but that's a very well known and documented type of cancer that many hobbies suffer from, one that sucks the soul outta anything - Though that's another story altogether.

As far as the vintage folk go, some will simply pile up on vintage jackets and collect them, while the others will want to actively wear them, to out the dream - but - knowing of the scarcity of truly fine vintage pieces, many people will often resort to repros in order to keep their vintage pieces intact. Which is perfectly understandable, too.

I personally wouldn't feel right wearing something very rare and precious out of fear of damaging it so ideally, provided that the money allows for it, I would much rather wear a repro while keeping the real deal safe at home.

That doesn't make much sense but obsession seldom does.

EDIT: More poetic wording.

Jin431 · Oct 28, 2021

marker2037 said:
I know I'm never going to find an actual vintage leathertogs so repro is the only way, really. All good by me.

I like where this is going. I support this venture lol

Coriu · Oct 28, 2021

Mich486 said:
Ok well if I want to get my hands on a j-24 I can wait years for one to pop up in my size (with probably a liner to be replaced and some zipper teeth missing) or I can instantly buy a repro. I guess this is hard to argue against. Am I wrong?

Granted one might enjoy the thrill of the hunt and the restoration process but I don’t think the availability of vintage pieces and repros is even remotely comparable. So I thought it was a commonly accepted fact that’s the reason why a repro market exists in the first place. Your question seems to take the availability issue out of the equation while it really is the source.

That makes total sense. I am trying to understand the buyer who purchases "new" vintage when there are viable options out there, a style that is not particularly rare...especially when one is purchasing a Japanese jacket, which could cost substantially more than a legit vintage jacket.

And to be clear, I am not trying to understand from the perspective of, "What's wrong with them?" I like understanding what makes people tick. Hopefully others do as well and can gain from the discussion.

Kuro · Oct 28, 2021

Coriu said:
That makes total sense. I am trying to understand the buyer who purchases "new" vintage when there are viable options out there, a style that is not particularly rare...especially when one is purchasing a Japanese jacket, which could cost substantially more than a legit vintage jacket.

And to be clear, I am not trying to understand from the perspective of, "What's wrong with them?" I like understanding what makes people tick. Hopefully others do as well and can gain from the discussion.

My answer: I saw the Centinela and the J-31, and I very much liked that style of leather jacket. I did my homework, a fair bit. There literally were no one else that made these two styles of jackets. My options were Freewheelers or RMC.

If the Centinela was made by Schott, or Aero (or etc.), I probably would have purchased from them first as a learning curve of where I started. Instead I did more homework on how to buy from Japan, who to talk to, what to expect. I contacted a few dealers and found that Watanabe-san of Genco Clothing was able to take measurements of the jackets I wanted to purchase etc. and he was very good to deal with. I jumped in, and my FW Centinela exceeded all my expectations and fit wonderfully. But it took effort and desire to own that particular style of jacket.

Anyways, once I had the Centinela by FW, the LaBrea was a VERY easy choice. I knew what to expect in the fit and quality and once again, that Leathertogs design language and style really was not available anywhere else, my choice at the time I purchased it was only FW. I very much enjoy the Leathertogs style and design.

Those two Leathertogs (as an example) jacket styles really are not made by anyone else, except Stu, and only fairly recently. And well, not everyone can buy a jacket directly from Stu at Lost Worlds.

As for why anyone else purchases Japanese leather jackets, I can not say.

Kuro · Oct 28, 2021

Coriu said:
I stated there are "some" in amazing condition, not "plenty." Based upon what I see online, I would feel safe stating that are a good number in reasonable condition...reasonable enough condition that Loungers take time to post them on Finds and Deals.

I am beginning to learn, that you may not be focused enough on a vintage design or detail that helps you understand what is happening with the repro market. The vintage jackets in the Finds and Deals sections represent a very large swath of leather jackets, so your statement is general in nature. But not what I want, I can not find a vintage J-31, or JH-1 that fits me, for example. (Let alone a Leathertogs...)

Coriu said:
That makes total sense. I am trying to understand the buyer who purchases "new" vintage when there are viable options out there, a style that is not particularly rare...especially when one is purchasing a Japanese jacket, which could cost substantially more than a legit vintage jacket.

Again this is a general statement, making an assumption that a crosszip is a universal design (my example) that anyone can make. I think what you are missing, and the reason for your quest to learn in this thread is the various minutia of details of a brand, and the evolution of the leather jacket styles from aviation to motorcycles. To capture those details, to find that one jacket that fits your desire. You are looking at the forest when you started this thread, from my perspective and the above statement. Someone like me is looking at the bark on one tree and finding it fascinating, and currently outside of some bad fitting patterns, only the Japanese market is making the bark of the single tree I desire.

For others, in your above example of a style that is not particularly rare, perhaps they want the name brand associated with the purchase, or etc. and no other reason. There may be nothing else to understand other than how Monitor recently explained it. That is how they want to spend their money. Why does RRL exist? Why Chromehearts?

Kuro · Oct 28, 2021

A perspective of Forest and trees, to help.

The J-31 and the Centinela, to those that see the forest, are the same style, and therefore the same jacket by different makers, take your pick.

But for those that look at the trees, they are very different jackets, with enough differences to separate them as distinct options.

Kuro · Oct 28, 2021

Mich486 said:
Ok well if I want to get my hands on a j-24 I can wait years for one to pop up in my size (with probably a liner to be replaced and some zipper teeth missing) or I can instantly buy a repro. I guess this is hard to argue against. Am I wrong?

Granted one might enjoy the thrill of the hunt and the restoration process but I don’t think the availability of vintage pieces and repros is even remotely comparable. So I thought it was a commonly accepted fact that’s the reason why a repro market exists in the first place. Your question seems to take the availability issue out of the equation while it really is the source.

Certain vintage jackets, that many repros are based on, that has not been touched upon by @Coriu is the cost associated with purchasing a vintage one. They can and do cost more than the repros do, and you are bidding against other vintage collectors.

Many reproduction jackets are not just based on a "vintage jacket from the find and deals" but are based on icons that collectors pay a large sum of money to own, that perhaps was the driving force behind the styles seen on the finds and deals. And this is another reason for this thread, there is a difference between a vintage crosszip and a J-24, and how this drives the reproduction market. To own a true Buco, or etc.

These are icons that stood out from the rest. Something about their patterns, or quality, or style for the time period that makes them desirable. Some Repro makers have collections of vintage jackets that they base their patterns on, and write books detailing their obscure history. You get to see growth and changes in the history. The arrival of the Turnpike and the change pocket as a small example. The action back, and what makers did BEFORE the action back was invented.

Aloysius · Oct 28, 2021

Monitor said:
I noticed this as well - And not just about Japanese craft & culture but how they completely disregard fashion in general, which I find incomprehensible as it's the most important crucial part of the let's call it scene & some of these guys completely disregard it, thinking the nicheness alone is sufficient to elevate them above the need for learning.

Yeah, it's bizarre (and once again something that the actual Japanese amekaji enthusiasts don't do, while their Western fanboys do.

Monitor said:
Great observation and again, something that stems from (deliberate) lack of comparison and antagonism toward actual knowledge. But I get it; There's simply so much to learn thus highest prices & most pretentious blurbs are the easiest route toward style.

Did you notice how many of these older guys tend to say how they've discovered style at whatever age, instead of fashion? Rugged style. Ugh.

Haha, when I'm bored I sometimes read through the blurbs on Standard & Strange, for the hilariously pretentious praise for brands. One of my faves was for a Japanese children's backpack, basically.

It's often quite misleading too. Like a recent one I saw about an RMC repro of AN-J-3, which in addition to the fluff went on at length about how unheard of it is that someone would repro that design.

Only it was not the rare AN-J-3 (that only Aero, Kelso, Sheeley, and if you count them, Five Star) repro. It was the AN-J-3 labeled M-422A, which is one of the most ubiquitous leather jackets around, reproed by every brand including mainstream brands like Schott and even still issued by the military. I don't blame RMC for this one; it's on S&S, but it was hilarious.

Kuro said:
These are icons that stood out from the rest. Something about their patterns, or quality, or style for the time period that makes them desirable. Some Repro makers have collections of vintage jackets that they base their patterns on, and write books detailing their obscure history. You get to see growth and changes in the history. The arrival of the Turnpike and the change pocket as a small example. The action back, and what makers did BEFORE the action back was invented.

This is spot on. And despite my disgust for weeb stores like S&S and much of the western culture around these brands, I do appreciate the home turf product, as well as those stores like History Preservation that actually reflect what makes the repro world so fascinating.

The Buzz Rickson's catalogue is a real pleasure to read, and the amount of research that went into them reproducing materials and construction techniques is impressive. What's more, as Charles from HPA has pointed out on here before, they don't even release most of their historical/photo research publicly, so what's in those catalogues is a fraction of it.

What Is the Allure of Japanese Leather Jackets?

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