Small article/story on NPR about Montecristi/Pile

Exactly. I think many people idolize "the simpler life" but most people who do don't seem to have actually lived it for any length of time. Living without modern conveniences is usually not a particularly great life.

Vladimir Berkov said:

Richard, are you serious? From your posts it is hard to tell if you are speaking tongue-in-cheek or are actually dead serious.

If you are serious...well...nevermind.

Click to expand...

He sounds serious to me, and I hope we have room for his opinions on this board.

And, btw, those houses are cool!

David

The picture that Richard paints is definitely pretty grim but unfortunately,
it resembles a non-American's perception of ordinary American life.
It's interesting to hear an American speaking like this, especially on this forum-
-nice to hear an alternative take and attitude on life from such an articulate individual.

B
T

The point about a huge mark up by stateside resellers is well taken. But lack of demand is still the main problem as I see it. Today's general populaces' lack of good taste has killed or is in the process of killing many art forms. Jazz music is an art form that has become more anemic with each passing year, for instance. I support jazz. I see live jazz whenever I can. I own four Panama hats. I'm sure that I'll continue to buy more in the future. But I'm under no illusion that both art forms are doomed.

we are the problem

Here's a recent book review from the Journal of the Amercian Medical Association that essentially argues that money will not make us healtheir, chnaging our lifestyle and social envirnoment will. At no cost. Kinda makes you think. Of course, this won't help you if your health is already shot to hell adn you're dependent on prescription drugs. but if not...makes you wonder what's good for a nation.

JAMA. 2005;293:2800.
Brian C. Reed, MD, Reviewer

In "Prescription for a Healthy Nation: A New Approach to Improving Our Lives
byFixing Our Everyday World", Tom Farley, MD, and Deborah A. Cohen, MD, detailperhapsthe best solution to this nation's health care woes. Despite spending morethan onetrillion dollars on health care annually, more Americans than ever developchronic diseases such as diabetes mellitus, obesity, and chronic pulmonary disease. Healthcare professionals and public policy architects are struggling to increase access tomedical care, improve quality, and contain rising costs. Nevertheless, the best efforts of our physicians and politicians seem to fail. Fortunately, in their well-written and readable book, Farley and Cohen provide realistic solutions. After assessing the behavioral and environmental factors thatcontribute to chronic disease in America, the authors propose sensible interventions to help curtail our modern epidemics. Farley and Cohen effectively argue that we must not focus all our efforts on the development of treatment guidelines for those
who already have chronic medical conditions such as hypertension, AIDS, and
diabetes mellitus. Rather, to prevent chronic medical conditions and create a healthy nation, we must change our social and physical environment.

The first chapter, "The Wrong Remedy," challenges readers to think beyond
treatment guidelines, prescription drug plans, and access to health care. The authors first describe a patient with almost unlimited access to health care through an insurance plan that pays 100% for office visits and hospitalizations. She pays only $10 for three-month supplies of prescription drugs. Unfortunately, she has diabetes, hypertension, and obesity. The authors then ask readers if this patient should be considered healthy and whether more access to health care or prescription drugs
would improve her health. Next, they consider the findings of articles
published in JAMA on "Actual Causes of Death in the United States."1-2 The articles attempt to trace the underlying contributory factors to the causes of death recorded on death certificates. The articles conclude that about half of all deaths are causedby behaviors such as smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, consuming high-fat diets,
and gun violence. Farley and Cohen then assert that the "major reason why we Americans die early is that we behave in an unhealthy way. It is what we do that makes us sick, not lack of access to medical care." Their argument is
rational and supported by evidence.

The remaining chapters are equally thought provoking, as the authors develop
a plan
to change the unhealthy aspects of our environment. They use examples of
previous
successful public health initiatives to demonstrate how throughout history
preventive measures have had greater impact on our health than treatment of
illness.
Since poor lifestyle choices and unhealthy behaviors contribute so heavily
to
today's epidemics, we clearly have numerous opportunities for prevention. To
end our
modern epidemics, disease prevention must include changes in the social
acceptability of unhealthy behaviors and restriction of access to high-fat
diets,
cigarettes, alcohol, and guns. Such changes may require new rules, laws, and
a
different physical landscape.

To limit access to the major factors contributing to development of chronic
illnesses, the authors suggest several measures, such as taxes on junk food,
indoor
smoking bans, and demolition of abandoned houses that can be used for
illegal drug
sales. They also suggest changing the portrayal of unhealthy behaviors in
advertising, movies, television, and video games. Building safe parks for
walking
and ensuring that grocery stores make healthy food choices more available
might also
be part of the blueprint for a healthy nation. The authors acknowledge that
some of
their ideas are controversial and may even be considered radical, but they
implore
readers to fight for change regardless of political obstacles.

Overall, Prescription for a Healthy Nation is an excellent book that
successfully
introduces a new approach to today's epidemics. Farley and Cohen have built
logical
arguments supported by evidence. Prescription for a Healthy Nation delivers
an
important message that should be shared with everyone.

My mother-in-law died at the age of 38 in Ecuador. She had uterine cancer. If she would have had the the money to pay for the level of health care available here in the USA she would be alive today.

There are real reasons people immigrate to USA and the opportunity to live a healthier life is one of them.

When I can afford the proper lifestyle I'd like to have, I'll move back to Ecuador.

im not oposed to discretionary income!

I also like indoor plumbing. But I think most modern conveniences and working like a dog to get them are overrated. For example; I'd rather have just a few articles of clothing in my closet than have it stuffed full of junk. It looks betetr and feels better. I think cars are overrated and overused. Microwave ovens? feh. tv? no. don't have one. computer? yeah, I like it, so I guess i do need electricity after all. hairdryers? please. laundry machines are convenient too. ok, I'll give you that one. shoes? the jury's out, but I think they may also be unnecessary. I eat the same thing for breakfast, then lunch every single day; oatmeal, then beans. dinner varies. always cheap, no meat. i think I own more hats now than shirts! I'm not saying go back to the log cabin, I just think we could cut waaaaaaaayyyy back and be pretty damn happy. with some discretionary income. I think it's worth thinking about what's really necessary to each of us instead of just marching lcokstep with the other mallcrawlers. it just seems that as a society we've decided that we should maximize production and profit, make our houses as huge and spread out as possible so cars are mandatory, and basically make life a kind of tightly wound, expensive, gear laden, debt infused affair. i'll cut back on my hats as soon as I figure out which ones I really need...

Rundquist,

I can't do much about Jazz, but I can keep selling as many hats as I can...be it for a $2.00 profit on ebay or not!!!

Enjoy your Montecristis.

Buy one and lock it up!!!

I have to agree with Feraud here. If the US was such a lousy country with nothing to offer then we would not have to police our borders. As it is now, if we opened our borders for just one month the continent would sink from all the extra weight. Let's be realistic here.
Choose whatever lifestyle you want. That is perfectly fine with me but don't generalize and extrapolate from the general to the specific. I am perfectly happy with what I have and intend to stay that way. I don't have all the problems you listed and I live in California with a bunch of nuts that have seriously screwed up the state in the last 40 years. It will take that long to fix it. Much of that mess involved limiting growth, which led to the huge commutes because people could not find affordable housing because they won't let you build in areas close to where you work---driving up the price due to supply and demand. This in turn led to increased traffic from outlying areas which increased pollution because cars were sitting still idling instead of moving. This lead the nuts to go after cars which problem they created in the first place.
Now they want to increase the fee developers have to pay for developing land but they want to force them to build so many low cost units. The developer then has to pass this cost on to the purchaser of the regular property and the cost of housing increases instead of decreasing even when stupid local governments say they are creating affordable housing. Such circular logic is ridiculous. I can go on and on---chapter and verse---about the consequences of public officials actions that they have no idea what they are doing. There is a law of unintended consequences and it is in play every second of everyday. If you do A the reaction will be B.
A specific case in point in my city can be stated. The city wanted to create an increase in the "urban forest." They decided to create a "tree ordinance" in which you had to go through a permit process ($35) to cut down a tree in your own backyard. Your neighbor could stop you from cutting down a tree by protesting within a certain period of time. They wanted to save trees and increase them. The fines were to be upwards of $5,000 for cutting down a tree without a permit!
At the public hearing they found out exactly what property owners would do if that were the case. Before it took effect, they would cut down every tree in their yard to avoid such ridiculous intrusions into their lives. This and quite a bit of organized protest stopped them cold.
Let's do a bit of thinking here before we decide to go back to the cave and become hunter gatherers again. There are consequences for actions and ideas. It might be time to check where we are going and where we have come from before moving in any direction. Just think about it.

Regards to all,

J

The Curse of Credt...

Maybe many of the people who want to move to the US would be happy to 'subsist' in the relative luxury of a US 'subsitence lifestyle'. I'm guessing that you're talking about invaders from the South(?). Nothing wrong with money-
but there is a nasty rat race/treadmill phenomenon, typified by the young who want to get married- spend 30+ grand on a wedding (on credit), by a too big house (on credit), 2 cars (on credit) in order to live up to their own expectations(maybe not their own)- can't get a job to match their education- these people will work 2 jobs each to 'subsist' at this level of consumerism.
And that's just the beginning. Their perception or illusion of 'The American Dream' is owning loads of stuff- but in their lifetimes, they will never be out of debt- never be free-hold. Keeping up with the Jones' has gone terribly, terribly wrong. The Implosion of consumerism.

And no, I'm not American- but you guys are talking about America.
This is what we see and hear and read and it seems to be a fairly wide-spread trap- not just Stateside of course- it's a Western Capitalist Society phenomenon.

"42% of the US population can either barely afford to make minimum payments on credit card balances or is unable to make payments at all.
The results of the Cambridge Consumer Credit index, a survey conducted by International Communications Research (ICR), also indicate that 29% of the respondents paid less than half the balance owed, but more than the minimum payment due.
In 2003, 46% had paid the minimum balance or made no payments at all."

"Jan. 29-31, 2003 -- American consumers now owe about $1.7 trillion in credit card and other debts- Americans spend most of what they earn, and in some cases, a little bit more."

If people who don't own a fortune could just live within their means- then they would be able to be happier, rather than chasing 'ends' beyond their 'means'.
But unfortunately, lending money is big money.

It's shades of the same problem for people living anywhere-

B
T

Since my wife is Ecuadorian and hasn't snapped into the USA lifestyle yet...really, she has a good head on her shoulders and knows we can't afford much more than we have at the moment...we live simply and within our means. Are there things we can't do? Most certainly. Does that make us unhappy? No!

I'll be going to Ecuador in a few weeks if anyone cares to join me, I'd be happy to take you to Montecristi and to Cuenca (where, yes, there are some good hats) so you can buy and tip the weaver directly.

PanamaBob, you experience is my experience. There are things I cannot do or afford but I'll live as well. The problem is witht he people not the system. If they do not live within their means then they are beyond reason. Your budget is a zero sum game. Simple.
I would like to travel to Italy and get one of those Borsalinos directly from Borsalino but that is not in my budget. It is not exactly the source of my happiness though. Sometimes people look outside themselves for what they should be working on within.

Regards to all,

J

Panamabob said:

My mother-in-law died at the age of 38 in Ecuador. She had uterine cancer. If she would have had the the money to pay for the level of health care available here in the USA she would be alive today.

There are real reasons people immigrate to USA and the opportunity to live a healthier life is one of them.

When I can afford the proper lifestyle I'd like to have, I'll move back to Ecuador.

Click to expand...

My mother-in-law died at the age of 42 of the same form of cancer. She DID have the level of health care available here in the U.S., but still could not fight off the disease. 'Affordability' has little to do with survival of this disease. I understand what you're saying, Bob, but you need a better example.
Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson,

I don't want to get into a pissin' contest over who should have died and who shouldn't have, however unless you got married quite young then your mother-in-law died quite a long time ago. My mother in law died in 2002. All, and I mean ALL of the doctor's said that if she would have had regular office visits they would have nipped that cancer right in the bud with the help of normal pap smear that would have alerted them(most ladies here that I know get yearly paps). Heck, my mom even had the total hysterctomy back in the late 70s when I was a young man.

The fact is that you can't get regular office visits in Ecuador when you aren't paid a decent wage. You can get regular office visits here, even if you just work at the local Wal Mart or you can use the welfare system for your checkups.

Nice, pleasant response, Bob. My reply was to compare the fact that we had family members lost to the same disease, and it made no difference what part of the world they lived in, the cancer was just as deadly. If that was totally lost on you, then I am sorry. No 'pissing match' was even begun or offered. You totally missed my point. Michaelson

"...need a better example." That discounts the words that I'd written and all the words of the doctors.

obviously health care

is going to save some people. for those people, yeah, it's necessary. that's not the issue. the issue is whether on the whole most people would be better off if they followed a few simple health tips (don't eat so much, get some exercise, don't smoke, drink in moderation) or whether they had full on health care. The research earlier on seems to indicate that as a whole, the former society would be a hell of a lot healthier than the fully medicated and doctored society, at no cost. Kinda makes sense intuitively, as if we are mostly honest with ourselves, most of the visits seem to be for high cholesterol, high blood pressure, heart issues. It's the unusual case where doctors do you any good. and most of the medical dolalrs in theis country are spent in the final weeks of life (so how much good can they really be doing there????) A lot of cancers too seem to be diet and smoking related. So, is money the answer? yes for some, but not for most. And our society is indisputably pretty damn sick. At least the people i cme in contact with. What passes for "healthy" nowadays aint. I wouldn't consider somebody healthy if they couldn't run around the block without huffing and puffing. That knocks out about 90% or more of the population.

I think we also have to figure nature into the equation here. Some diseases and ailments run in families. No matter what they do they are going to have a particular ailment that their parents did.
Knowing this medical history and watching it carefully can mean the difference between life and death. Two examples. My wife's family has a history of high cholesterol. No matter what they eat or do in their lives it just happens. My father-in-law eats like a rabbit and still has to take medicine to keep it down. My wife keeps it to a minimum with diet but in the long run medicine will have to be resorted to.
Another case is my mother. For four generations the women on my mother's side of the family have had breast cancer---no matter what they ate or what country they lived in. She was no exception.
Then you have people like my grandmother. She ate and did whatever she wanted all her life---even to this day. She is 93 and passes every physical easily, no high cholesterol, no high blood pressure---nothing. This is all with minimum care and medicine. It makes you wonder. Her mother lived to be 87 and her grandmother lived to be 90. She is working on 100.
It is the cases where you know what the family history is and what is likely to be coming that modern medicine helps the most with. Even Doctor Dean Edell said that by eating right and doing all of those extra things---you extend your life two years on average. Sometimes it is just being blessed with good genes. :cheers1:

Regards to all,

J

Regards to all,

J

Panamabob said:

"...need a better example." That discounts the words that I'd written and all the words of the doctors.

Click to expand...

It wasn't meant as such, Bob, and I hope that you, as a teacher, would not try and read things into posts that are just not there. My 'better example' was referring to comparing 3rd world problems in terms of health problems to what we're experiencing here in the U.S. Yes, I lost my mother-in-law to the same cancer, and yes, it happened quite a while ago, but that said, WE were told exactly the same thing by HER doctor almost 20 years ago that your doctor told YOU, so things have not moved as rapidly in terms of fighting this cancer as one would think. I meant nothing more than that. There are a lot more simplier and yet deadly health problems that are still rampant in Central America that are not even thought about here in the States that could be used as examples of the wide gap that exists in world health.
Good grief, Bob, I'm trying to agree with you.
Regards. Michaelson

good topic...

Unfortunately i can't take part at this discussion,my english don't help me to do it.

All around the world there are a lot of people that work for a piece of bread and few people that overworks them.
This happen as in south and north America as in south and north of the world...
...do you remember africans chinese... the colored slave history... exc exc...?
May i really believe that there is a "non profit" group that take care about ecuadorian weaves...
Here in Italy there is an organization called "Altro mercato" letterally "Other market" that sell products coming from Africa Asia and south America...like coffe and other else.
Certanly anyone in this organization have to earn anything...i really don't believe in 100%volonteers...
...i thing that the good thing to do, in this case is to teach them to live themeselves...without help by noone...weaving...finishing...selling their hats...without any North American's ( or english... italian...) middlemen...

Anyone had never thought to teach them how to run their family like firm?
Did anyone never help them to trasform their house like a fabric?


Who really has this interest?
Since always poor has worked hardly for the rich...today like yestarday...it's no good...but don't be hypocrite.

I would like to explain it in italian: i'msorry.

Regards.
Riccardo.