Which religious group?

St Peter's

I would have a hard time putting my religious views in a single box, there are elements of agnosticism, Christianity, etc. etc. all mixed up in there. I'm comfortable with it, and I have no problem respecting other peoples' views. But when I visited Rome 3 years ago, and was wandering thought St Peter's, I was awed and impressed by the magnificent beauty. But something in my gut reared up and reminded me of my Protestant roots. I felt very close to Oliver Cromwell in that moment! lol May I point out, however, despite his bad reputation over the centuries, he was a great advocate of religious tolerance (as long as you were Protestant) as compared to many of his contemporaries, and an opponent of established religion.
But I must also say, that feeling of "Protestantness" is as much an issue of style as substance. Odd phenomenon, religion.

Foofoogal said:

I am serious when I think science really needs to take a good look at it all. I am very religious as one can see and I think endorphins even come into play. I know there are some hard studies on belief and healing.
I was healed of Graves disease I believe supernaturally. I have seen enough miracles personally in my life that I am totally convinced. With a huge family I have seen tons of real miracles.

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You were healed of Graves disease supernaturally? Oh, please explain how that happened. I would imagine that your case and the cases of the "tons of real miracles" would be in medical textbooks. A good book to read is "God is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens. I believe a lot of answers are there.

Wow, I just happened upon this amazing thread, I have not heard such a discussion since university. I don't mean that it's sophomoric, it's more that there is a diversity of views that are rather well thought out.
My search led me, in the 60's, to seek intense spiritual experiences. My "conclusion" then was that ALL the world religions had primary tenets that appeared patently fallacious and unless there was some letting go of past belief systems we would continually be at each others throats. And such has happened. except in some peaceful pockets of discourse like here.
As for me, I stand in wonder as the universe: reveals itself from the evanescent quantum, through conglomerations of life, to galaxy clusters...

Taoist here.

Just some stuff: a means not or without and gnosis is knowledge (roughly) Agnostics are those without knowledge. They do not know, or do not affirmatively believe.

A means not or without and "The" refers to god. Atheists are those without god. They affirmatively believe that god does not exist.

Catholic roughly means universal. The roman catholic chursh was the official and universal church of the roman empire, starting with the emperor constantine.

Protestants have a roman catholic heritage. Most orthodox christians don't. Protestants actually had issues with the Roman catholic church and along came the schism. They separated in protest.

The british philosopher Hume used the unprovability of the existence or nonexistence of god in explaining "hume's fork" there he said that that which cannot be proved or disproved cannot be resolved and basically is a waste of time to argue. That's why they call it faith and belief.

To the atheists and agnostics, check out "Paschal's Wager"

Hope you get a litle light and no heat here.

Carpe Diem
Fast

Bebop said:

You were healed of Graves disease supernaturally? Oh, please explain how that happened. I would imagine that your case and the cases of the "tons of real miracles" would be in medical textbooks. A good book to read is "God is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens. I believe a lot of answers are there.

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Begging your pardon most humbly, but I'm afraid that I am reading your comment as rather patronizing and snarky.

If she could explain how she was healed, she wouldn't call it supernatural, would she? And I wouldn't expect to see miracles in medical textbooks because, well, you can't really learn techinques and methods from them.
I've met an awful lot of medical workers who have seen an awful lot of things they can't explain. Whether those things were caused by placebo effect, the surprising ability of the human body or outside forces, I don't know, and I don't really care. However, strange things do happen, and it is up to people as flawed as we are, to interpret them.

Maybe I am misreading you here, but I feel you are poking fun, or at the very least passing judgement, on the views of others. I understand from reading your prior posts that you have felt others have judged you in a similar manner in the past. I don't see anyone doing it now though, so I do hope you will return the favor.

I'm very sorry if I offended.

Respectfully,

Joie

Foofoogal said:

Wasn't it interesting that people suddenly found God when 911 happened?

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********
Actually, the number of people finding God (or God finding them as the case maybe) was not much above average. What did happen was a lot of people that were not regular church goers (lapsed) did go after 911 for a while.

I am not offended in the least about reaction to my post about my Graves but due to time restaints I will have to come back to this.
I have an acquaintance that has a publishing company that has put out at least 19 books that is jam packed with people who believe in miracles and their personal stories. It is fascinating.
I do know I had Graves and now I do not. I was on 8 pills a day and now I am not and I even believe the Lord prepared me for it all. lol

K.D. Lightner said:

Foofoogal --

There is a book out on that subject, called The God Gene, written by Drean H. Hamer, who is a geneticist.

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Another couple for you, Foofoogal, which (speculatively) discuss religiosity from a Darwinian perspective as a useful adaptation for the survival and flourishing of offspring: sections of anything by E. O. Wilson, including On Human Nature. Walter Burkert's Creation of the Sacred (lame title, great scholar). From the point of view of a committed atheist, The Blank Slate by Pinkerton. I think Separation and its Discontents and A People That Shall Dwell Alone by Kevin MacDonald are impressive, too. They focus specifically on Judaism as a group evolutionary adaptation but much of what he writes is applicable to many religions, especially those that emphasize separateness, eugenic practices, and endogamous breeding. Some people find his work "controversial" (silly word). I do not.

Religion's ability to enhance human survival is very interesting to me.

Essentially the Darwinian argument for religion's usefulness is fairly straightforward and would go as follows. Groups of people who have a common devotion to something will support each other in hard times and thus increase chances of survival. A gene that predisposes (not determines) persons toward this will tend to get passed on. This applies not only to religion, of course. However, those religions which preach endogamy or marrying within the group will develop a concentration of this gene. Religions that emphasize things like avoidance of murder will naturally exert a positive effect on group survival in comparison with groups of people who do not emphasize it. The preaching of avoidance of other antisocial activities (theft, wife stealing) will tend to reduce conflict within the group as well, increasing chances of individual survival.

There is probably a genetic tendency to revere a father figure. Sociobiologists and evolutionary psychologists would explain this as a tendency that produces an evolutionary advantage in terms of reproductive success because a pack of animals or humans who are obedient to a leader who is older and more experienced, will survive in general better than individuals who are just doing their own thing and do not know enough to avoid predators, etc. This tendency is easily transposed to a nonhuman and in fact a nonhuman will seem more powerful than a "mere" human. I would compare this tendency to "the iron law of oligarchy" which states that all human societies tend to eventually become ruled oligarchically because democracies are too delicate to sustain. I think people want to trust and love a wise figure because that represents less worry. Love slides into worship rather easily as a look at The Story of O by Pauline Reage will show you. A good historical example would be the evolution of emperor worship in the early Roman imperial period. Augustus did NOT ordain this but it seems to have sprung up in the provinces by itself, organically. They gave him divine honors because that was the only way they knew to express their humble admiration and adoration and dependence on him. Human honors, even huge ones as are given to generals or kings, just weren't enough.

I do not know anything about genetic tendencies to have religious experiences such as transfigurative, highly emotional out-of-body experiences. I cannot imagine that they would enhance survival of genes, but maybe I have not yet thought about it enough.

Joie DeVive said:

Begging your pardon most humbly, but I'm afraid that I am reading your comment as rather patronizing and snarky.

If she could explain how she was healed, she wouldn't call it supernatural, would she? And I wouldn't expect to see miracles in medical textbooks because, well, you can't really learn techinques and methods from them.
I've met an awful lot of medical workers who have seen an awful lot of things they can't explain. Whether those things were caused by placebo effect, the surprising ability of the human body or outside forces, I don't know, and I don't really care. However, strange things do happen, and it is up to people as flawed as we are, to interpret them. The best people like us can do, is say "I have no idea what happened", not "it's a miracle".

Maybe I am misreading you here, but I feel you are poking fun, or at the very least passing judgement, on the views of others. I understand from reading your prior posts that you have felt others have judged you in a similar manner in the past. I don't see anyone doing it now though, so I do hope you will return the favor.

I'm very sorry if I offended.

Respectfully,

Joie

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I apologize for offending anyone. I was being a bit too playful. Maybe I am just strange but I had no idea anyone here would take "miracles" seriously. For a while, we could not figure out what brought on AIDS and why it was killing so many people. Was that a "supernatural" ailment because we did not know what was happening? Just because we don't know why something happens does not make it a miracle or supernatural. It is not up to people like us to interpret things we don't understand. It is up to people that can make sense of it to interpret them. The best thing people like us can do is say, "I don't know what happened" not "it was a miracle".

My fault. Of course everyone can believe what they want. I in no way want to make anyone feel attacked or put down. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

Maybe I am just strange but I had no idea anyone here would take "miracles" seriously.

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That is what faith is all about.

Where does Faith come from?

The way it is:

Non Believers see Believers as either Stupid or Naive.

While Believers see Non-Believers as shortsighted.

Both believe the other is the more Narrow Minded.

John in Covina said:

The way it is:

Non Believers see Believers as either Stupid or Naive.

While Believers see Non-Believers as shortsighted.

Both believe the other is the more Narrow Minded.

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Excuse me, but I must beg to differ: I deeply admire people of true faith. When I say 'true', I mean a faith that provides solace and comfort in times of trouble and gratitude in during the good times. True faith that does not require superiority, agenda, or control over another. I know many people of that ilk from many a religion: I count as friends a Catholic priest, a Protestant Pastor and Rabbi. And, among them, there is respect for each others faith, not disdain. And, as far as I am concerned, respect for my differing interpretation and practice of, well, all of the above! I know many folks who talk about God on daily basis, but do so in a manner that invokes the idea that it's not about who is right, but about what can I learn from another that will help me find my way! That is the spiritual! And spiritual trancends dogma because one is of man and the other is...more!

To put in such narrow terms, as above, a mass generalization is to do a dis-service to all. We ALL seek...meaning, answers, comfort. But comfort found in setting yourself above another simply because of your beliefs is not comfort at all, it is hubris. And hubris, as is most of those dark aspects of the ego, human - not divine.

Now, I am not directing this at you specifically, John. I just find that when such a general position is taken, it must be rebutted.

John in Covina said:

The way it is:

Non Believers see Believers as either Stupid or Naive.

While Believers see Non-Believers as shortsighted.

Both believe the other is the more Narrow Minded.

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I think that's a bit of a generalization. I have been both a believer and non-believer at different points in my life, and have held (and still do hold) respect for those who believe differently than I do. As a matter of fact, I think I was quite a bit more narrow minded when it came to atheists and people of other religions when I was a regular churchgoer. Now, although I may not believe in the God that the monotheists worship, I still have respect for their piety.

I apologize for offending anyone. I was being a bit too playful. Maybe I am just stra

I apologize for offending anyone. I was being a bit too playful. Maybe I am just strange but I had no idea anyone here would take "miracles" seriously. quote by bebop

hey bebop a lulu of an assumption you make... just a thought: its unwise to assume that others think like you do. Its probably more safe to assume they don't.

Let not your heart be troubled: You believe in God,believe also in me.
I am the way..the truth...and the life.
No man can come to the Father,but by me.

If this is not understood..ignored..or denied...
..then I suppose whatever seems more pleasing will do for now...

HD

surely said:

I apologize for offending anyone. I was being a bit too playful. Maybe I am just strange but I had no idea anyone here would take "miracles" seriously. quote by bebop

hey bebop a lulu of an assumption you make... just a thought: its unwise to assume that others think like you do. Its probably more safe to assume they don't.

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Would it be wise to assume others believe in the easter bunny or the tooth fairy also? Is it not unwise to ask to be taken seriously without any proof? By all means, everyone should think and believe how they want. I only assume the reasonable. Just a thought here too. Didn't mean to step on your toes also.

Things are heating up ... uh oh.

HoosierDaddy said:

Let not your heart be troubled: You believe in God,believe also in me.
I am the way..the truth...and the life.
No man can come to the Father,but by me.

If this is not understood..ignored..or denied...
..then I suppose whatever seems more pleasing will do for now...

HD

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Do you not see that Allah is He Whom do glorify all those who are in the heavens and the earth, and the (very) birds with expanded wings? He knows the prayer of each one and its glorification, and Allah is Cognizant of what they do.

OR

For I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those
who hate me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of
those who love me and keep my commandments.

Now, who is right? Who is ABSOLUTELY right?

Doran said:

Things are heating up ... uh oh.

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What he said.

This thread started out civilly, hopefully it can stay civil.

Samsa said:

This thread started out civilly, hopefully it can stay civil.

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I ditto that.