Which religious group?

K.D. Lightner said:

Masonjar -- thanks for your most interest post.


karol

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thanks Karol!

Whatever that "hard-wire" is.. mine was cut a long time ago! I even remember as a child/teen sitting in church (Methodist) thinking.. man, do all these people really believe this stuff or are they just "playing along" in order to have a social activity on Sunday mornings and "be seen" ?

-Mason

Masonjar -- My experiences exactly, besides the preacher and various Sunday school teachers telling us how superior we were to those Catholics down the street, and the Baptists across town and.... ad nauseum. A real turn-off all around.

I didn't even believe in Santa Claus, not ever; not even at the age of three when I was first told.

Now you have me curious about the 7 Habits books. Have noticed them but never picked one up.

karol

K.D. Lightner said:

Masonjar -- My experiences exactly, besides the preacher and various Sunday school teachers telling us how superior we were to those Catholics down the street, and the Baptists across town and.... ad nauseum. A real turn-off all around.

I didn't even believe in Santa Claus, not ever; not even at the age of three when I was first told.

Now you have me curious about the 7 Habits books. Have noticed them but never picked one up.

karol

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7 HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PEOPLE is mostly common sense stuff, things that we all know that if we did every day, our lives would work better. But sometimes, we forget because we're creatures of our bad habits or we're slaves to our emotions. 7 HABITS talks about being proactive, trying to achieve "win-win" situations with others, goal-setting and remembering that everyone has their own paradigm through which they see the world. I was introduced to it through my employer and continued with it myself. It's good stuff.

-Mason

Masonjar said:

It's sort of like this: I think all people are born as "blank slates." At some point, someone tries to imprint the idea of religion and God onto these blank slates. For some of these blank slates, the idea of god sticks, it becomes a part of their life, and eventually they accept it as part of their reality. For others, the idea sticks as well, but they fight against it, even hate it. For me, the idea never stuck. So, in a sense, I'm still a "blank slate" as far as god is concerned.



So, for all those who've experienced their god, that's all fine and dandy. Just don't expect me to live as if your god is somehow real. Because it's no more real to me than the tooth fairy and unicorns.

-Mason

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To me, being an Atheist does not mean having an idea that stuck and now I am fighting it or hating it. There is nothing to fight. There is nothing to hate. Belief by consensus instead of by fact is not something I can hate or fight. There are people that need a God for whatever reason they see fit. They don't care about reasoning or facts or proof. They just want their God and bible because they believe they are better people that way and thats ok with me.

If you are not sure whether there is a God or feel you have no basis to make a desicion or you feel like you are a "blank slate", you are not an Atheist. You are an Agnostic. A common misconseption is that you have to be angry or full of other issues to be an Atheist. Hard line Atheists? What is that? There are no different levels of disbelif of a God. You either believe God exists (believer), not sure God exists (Agnostic) or are certain God does not exist (Atheist). You can't believe that something does not exist more than the other guy that believes something does not exist. Maybe you are talking about "hard line whackos" that use Atheisim as a way of being aggressive or antisocial.

Bebop said:

To me, being an Atheist does not mean having an idea that stuck and now I am fighting it or hating it.

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I wasn't trying to pin that behavior on any one group, I just do know that there are people that while claiming to be Atheist, spent a whole heck of a lot of time talking about God and how bad the Christian God especially and trying convince others that there is no God, etc. That's a lot of time and energy spent on something they don't think exists!

For some reason, I've been thinking a lot about the difference between Atheist and Agnostic. I used to think that Agnostics were wishy-washy and wouldn't commit. Now I'm coming around to thinking that I can't in all honesty state "God does not exist" either - all my experience tells me that I have no reason to believe there is a god. It's subtle, but different. But on the other hand, I don't like saying "I don't know" - because I have no basis to "know" either way. Ugh, I feel like I'm back in Modern Philosphy class in college...

-Mason

K.D. Lightner said:

There are some books out there that propose the reason people are "hard-wired" for religion is that, in most of our human history, life has been well, mean, brutish and short -- so much so that people had to invent something of an afterlife or reward/punishment system in order to be able to tolerate even living on this planet under horrible circumstances.

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Have you read much on Terror Management Theory?

Some of the interactions in the thread reminded me of some themes I read about a while back in The Denial of Death by Ernest Becker. I actually was cleaning up and found the book and started flipping through it recently and I have also been reading a bit on Terror Management Theory which was developed from Becker's theories.

I think the idea in TMT is that we as humans know we know we are mortal, we are very much afraid to die, and we seek to alleviate death anxiety by believing in something that gives our life great meaning or perhaps let us or others live in some eternal sense (heaven, hell, etc.). When someone else comes along and disputes our religion or the beliefs we have used to alleviate our death anxiety conflicts may arise...it makes "tolerance" very, very hard.

Ugh, I feel like I'm back in Modern Philosphy class in college...

-Mason[/QUOTE]


On that note.....If you have no reason to believe that something exists, you do know. You know it does not exist... until you find a reason. By the way, I believe that some Atheist spend a lot of time on something they don't think exist for the same reason some religious people spend so much time on something they believe exists. We all are guided by our belief that we are on the right path and want to share that with others.

You know it does not exist... until you find a reason.

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Somehow, someway this is what many people have experienced. The power of Love which is God!
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April 20, 2005
At the Airport in Knoxville


Waiting to board the plane: I had the Bible on my lap and was very intent upon what I was doing. I'd had a marvelous morning with the Lord.

I say that because I want to tell you it is a scary thing to have the Spirit of God really working in you.

You could end up doing some things you never would have done otherwise. Life in the Spirit can be dangerous for a thousand reasons not the least of which is your ego.

I tried to keep from staring but he was such a strange sight. Humped over in a wheelchair, he was skin and bones, dressed in clothes that obviously fit when he was at least twenty pounds heavier. His knees protruded from his trousers, and his shoulders looked like the coat hanger was still in his shirt. His hands looked like tangled masses of veins and bones. The strangest part of him was his hair and nails. Stringy gray hair hung well over his shoulders and down part of his back. His fingernails were long. Clean, but strangely out of place on an old man.

I looked down at my Bible as fast as I could, discomfort burning my face. As I tried to imagine what his story might have been, I found myself wondering if I'd just had a Howard Hughes sighting.

Then, I remembered that he was dead. So this man in the airport...an impersonator maybe? Was a camera on us somewhere?

There I sat trying to concentrate on the Word to keep from being concerned about a thin slice of humanity served on a wheelchair only a few seats from me. All the while my heart was growing more and more overwhelmed with a feeling for him. Let's admit it. Curiosity is a heap more comfortable than true concern, and suddenly I was awash with aching emotion for this bizarre-looking old man.

I had walked with God long enough to see the handwriting on the wall. I've learned that when I begin to feel what God feels, something so contrary to my natural feelings, something dramatic is bound to happen. And it may be embarrassing. I immediately began to resist because I could feel God working on my spirit and I started arguing with God in my mind.

"Oh no, God please no." I looked up at the ceiling as if I could stare straight through it into heaven and said, "Don't make me witness to this man. Not right here and now. Please. I'll do anything. Put me on the same plane, but don't make me get up here and witness to this man in front of this gawking audience. Please, Lord!"...

There I sat in the blue vinyl chair begging His Highness, "Please don't make me witness to this man. Not now. I'll do it on the plane."

Then I heard it..."I don't want you to witness to him. I want you to brush his hair."
The words were so clear, my heart leapt into my throat, and my thoughts spun like a top. Do I witness to the man or brush his hair? No-brainer.

I looked straight back up at the ceiling and said, "God, as I live and breathe, I want you to know I am ready to witness to this man. I'm on this Lord. I'm you're girl! You've never seen a woman witness to a man faster in your life. What difference does it make if his hair is a mess if he is not redeemed? I am on him. I am going to witness to this man."
Again as clearly as I've ever heard an audible word, God seemed to write this statement across the wall of my mind. "That is not what I said, Beth. I don't want you to witness to him. I want you to go brush his hair."
I looked up at God and quipped, "I don't have a hairbrush. It's in my suitcase on the plane, How am I supposed to brush his hair without a hairbrush?"

God was so insistent that I almost involuntarily began to walk toward him as these thoughts came to me from God's word: "I will thoroughly furnish you unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:17) I stumbled over to the wheelchair thinking I could use one myself. Even as I retell this story my pulse quickens and I feel those same butterflies.

I knelt down in front of the man, and asked as demurely as possible, "Sir, may I have the pleasure of brushing your hair?"
He looked back at me and said, "What did you say?"

"May I have the pleasure of brushing your hair? To which he responded in volume ten, "Little lady, if you expect me to hear you, you're going to have to talk louder than that. At this point, I took a deep breath and blurted out, "SIR, MAY I HAVE THE PLEASURE OF BRUSHING YOUR HAIR?"

At which point every eye in the place darted right at me. I was the only thing in the room looking more peculiar than old Mr. Longlocks. Face crimson and forehead breaking out in a sweat, I watched him look up at me with absolute shock on his face, and say, "If you really want to."

Are you kidding? Of course I didn't want to. But God didn't seem interested in my personal preference right about then. He pressed on my heart until I could utter the words, "Yes, sir, I would be pleased. But I have one little problem. I don't have a hairbrush."

"I have one in my bag," he responded. I went around to the back of that wheelchair, and I got on my hands and knees and unzipped the stranger's old carry-on hardly believing what I was doing. I stood up and started brushing the old man's hair. It was perfectly clean, but it was tangled and matted. I don't do many things well, but I must admit I've had notable experience untangling knotted hair mothering two little girls. Like I'd done with either Amanda or Melissa in such a condition, I began brushing at the very bottom of the strands, remembering to take my time not to pull. A miraculous thing happened to me as I started brushing that old man's hair. Everybody else in the room disappeared. There was no one alive for those moments except that old man and me. I brushed and I brushed and I brushed until every tangle was out of that hair.

I know this sounds so strange but I've never felt that kind of love for another soul in my entire life. I believe with all my heart, I - for that few minutes - felt a portion of the very love of God. That He had overtaken my heart for a little while like someone renting a room and making Himself at home for a short while. The emotions were so strong and so pure that I knew they had to be God's.

His hair was finally as soft and smooth as an infant's. I slipped the brush back in the bag, went around the chair to face him. I got back down on my knees, put my hands on his knees, and said, "Sir, do you know my Jesus?"

He said, "Yes, I do." Well, that figures, I thought. He explained, "I've known Him since I married my bride. She wouldn't marry me until I got to know the Savior." He said, "You see, the problem is, I haven't seen my bride in months. I've had open-heart surgery, and she's been too ill to come see me. I was sitting here thinking to myself, what a mess I must
be for my bride."

Only God knows how often He allows us to be part of a divine moment when we're completely unaware of the significance. This, on the other hand, was one of those rare encounters when I knew God had intervened in details only He could have known. It was a God moment, and I'll never forget it. Our time came to board, and we were not on the same plane. I was deeply ashamed of how I'd acted earlier and would have been so proud to have accompanied him on that aircraft.

I still had a few minutes, and as I gathered my things to board, the airline hostess returned from the corridor, tears streaming down her cheeks. She said, "That old man's sitting on the plane, sobbing. Why did you do that? What made you do that?"

I said, "Do you know Jesus? He can be the bossiest thing!" And we got to share. I learned something about God that day. He knows if you're exhausted because you're hungry, you're serving in the wrong place or it is time to move on but you feel too responsible to budge. He knows if you're hurting or feeling rejected. He knows if you're sick or drowning under a wave of temptation. Or He knows if you just need your hair brushed. He sees you as an individual. Tell Him your need!

I got on my own flight, sobs choking my throat, wondering how many opportunities just like that one had I missed along the way... all because I didn't want people to think I was strange. God didn't send me to that old man. He sent that old man to me.

John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Beth Moore

"Case closed", said the Atheist.

Interestingly this thread has degenerated into a "you are stupid for believing in something you can't prove" and "you are stupid for not having faith." For some reason both seem to be insulting to me.
I am outta here. :eusa_doh:

jamespowers said:

Interestingly this thread has degenerated into a "you are stupid for believing in something you can't prove" and "you are stupid for not having faith." For some reason both seem to be insulting to me.
I am outta here. :eusa_doh:

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Wow, I didn't see that at all. This has actually been a very polite discussion (compared to some internet religion wars I've been involved in).

-Mason

jamespowers said:

Interestingly this thread has degenerated into a "you are stupid for believing in something you can't prove" and "you are stupid for not having faith." For some reason both seem to be insulting to me.
I am outta here. :eusa_doh:

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Is somebody calling me stupid? I missed it. Am I calling someone stupid? I missed that too. Thanks for stirring things up JP. Nothing like pitting people against each other to make things interesting.

Bebop said:

There are people that need a God for whatever reason they see fit. They don't care about reasoning or facts or proof. They just want their God and bible because they believe they are better people that way and thats ok with me.

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Sounds like an inference to stupid to me.

They don't care about reasoning or facts or proof.

jamespowers said:

Sounds like an inference to stupid to me.

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Um, that's what Faith is.. belief without need for reasoning or facts or proof!

Those things aren't important to people with Faith, they believe it in their hearts, and that's all that matters to them.

I'm sure it was not meant as a put-down.

-Mason

K.D. Lightner said:

-- so much so that people had to invent something of an afterlife or reward/punishment system in order to be able to tolerate even living on this planet under horrible circumstances.

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I am directing this question to agnostics/athiests:
I am just curious to know as to how do you prepare for death? You know it's coming, and without having any faith in a creator/God, death becomes a frightening mystery of the unknown. Will it just be "lights off" and that's it? I mean how do you face it or prepare for it?

Gilbey said:

I am directing this question to agnostics/athiests:
I am just curious to know as to how do you prepare for death? You know it's coming, and without having any faith in a creator/God, death becomes a frightening mystery of the unknown. Will it just be "lights off" and that's it? I mean how do you face it or prepare for it?

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To be honest, I'm not worried about it. Yes I will die, but what I want to concentrate on is what comes before "lights off". In this life, I want to make sure that I make those around me smile, someone a bit happier, and eventually raise a family who will spread goodwill as well. I make my heaven and hell here on earth by my own decisions, I can control what I do, and how I treat others. Today is what I can control, not tomorrow. As long as I am happy with where I've been and where I'm going, I don't feel like I need a reward for living--what is happening now, these emotions I deal with every day, are reward enough. Death is not frightening, unless you make it so.

You 've heard of the expression "scared to death" everywhere. Well honestly, if I didn't believe in Christ, that's exactly how I'd feel on my deathbed: I'd be scared to death of DEATH. For as far as this body is concerned that constitutes "ME", I know I'll be closed in a coffin and be buried 6 feet under. All alone in the dark under claustrophobic conditions in this box where I will rot and be eaten by worms, I think it's pretty scary

To Die or sleep or wink out of existence?

It is an inevitability to die as in the old saying about Death & Taxes. There certainly seems to be no proof you are still some how conscious of your body after you have passed on. If there is no afterlife then you simply wink out like a light bulb shut off and there should be no pain or boredom or anything, you pass from being to not being.

If there is an afterlife then you move onto another state of being or are you recycled like SHirley McLain? Will there be some sort of judgement of your life? See the movie "Defending Your Life" it is pretty funny.

If you are a Christian do you believe in Heaven right away or do we slumber until the Judgement Day?

Gilbey said:

You 've heard of the expression "scared to death" everywhere. Well honestly, if I didn't believe in Christ, that's exactly how I'd feel on my deathbed: I'd be scared to death of DEATH. For as far as this body is concerned that constitutes "ME", I know I'll be closed in a coffin and be buried 6 feet under. All alone in the dark under claustrophobic conditions in this box where I will rot and be eaten by worms, I think it's pretty scary

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Well, sure...who wouldn't be petrified? But I figure that my consciousness will go into a collective energy, to be recycled into the planet, that my body won't be me any longer. It will be over--my thoughts, actions, emotions will only be part of the memory of my loved ones.

That and I'd rather be cremated .

John in Covina said:

If you are a Christian do you believe in Heaven right away or do we slumber until the Judgement Day?

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I believe as a Christian that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord immediately. I believe we will have a grand reunion there of all our Christian relatives and friends, even people we didn't know in the flesh but will meet us there due to our witness. What a day that will be! For the Christian, death is just the beginning of life.