IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

Windsock · Mar 31, 2008

Smithy said:
Fantastic Andrew!

Pleased to hear you've gotten hold of one after the "Black Irvin" conversation here a couple of months back.

Also, this is the same one which was posted when we were talking about them, isn't it?

Can't remember if I mentioned it, but I would put money on that having belonged to an RCAF member or a Canadian in the RAF. Canadians, unlike most other Commonwealth aircrew, quite often decorated their flying kit like US servicemen did.

It's one and the same jacket and i'd love to have a black one but only larger. I wonder if any kind of "black sheep" ribbing went on for fellows who wore these black types. I'm surprised there weren't a little more common as black sheep were/ are not uncommon in the UK are they? They certainly are here- never seen one.

I'm with you on the Canadian theory Smithy, but imagine what it would be like if it were not the rule and painted Irvins were the norm! Imagine the prices they'd fetch. At least this way there is a general price ceiling.

At least we can now have this one bagged and tagged for research.

Edward · Mar 31, 2008

Smithy said:
Edward,

The reason why the hands and feet were heated was that at extreme altitude (and during ops in the colder months) this was where aircrew experienced most cold, discomfort and even, extreme pain. A great many flying memoirs by aircrew talk about the discomfort and in some cases agony that was experienced in the hands and feet. It's also the parts of the body which develop frost bite first.

I didn't articulate that well... what I was getting at wasn't so much why they concentrated on heating those bits of the body, more speculating that they ran the wiring through the jacket in order that they could have one central plug to the plane (or were there more?) and the minimum of trailing wires / links to sever in the event of a rapid evacualtion being necessary.

aswatland · Apr 1, 2008

The black fleece Irvin arrived today and it is larger than described. Sleeves are 26" rather than the 23" given and the pit is 23" not 22". It was probably originally a size 5 and it a perfect fit. As to maker it is not the work of Robinson and Ensum as I first thought. The small collar rings and narrower belt loops would appear to rule out Wareings and DGL. The square collar, small collar rings, "average" sized belt loops, wide seam tapes and tan stitching are features on jackets I own, made by Irvin Air Chute. However it could be from one of several as yet unknown contractors! I will take some pics at the weekend.

Smithy · Apr 1, 2008

Look forward to the pics Andrew.

I'd love to know who made this. And I still would be keen to know if there were any manufactured in Canada.

You're a lucky man!

aswatland · Apr 1, 2008

Assuming the Black fleeced Irvin was made in the UK, I have found three breeds of sheep, which have black wool. The most likely is the Black Welsh Mountain.

The Hebridia is another possibility.

Or the Zwartble.

KilroyCD · Apr 3, 2008

Fantastic catch! I had never heard of a black fleece Irvin until reading this thread. It must be the rarest of the rare...
While speaking of Irvins, I recently bought an ALC Irvin from fellow Lounger Spitfire. After having languished in customs for a few weeks it just arrived today - just in time for the warm spring weather.

Windsock · Apr 3, 2008

aswatland said:
Assuming the Black fleeced Irvin was made in the UK, I have found three breeds of sheep, which have black wool. The most likely is the Black Welsh Mountain.

Well it's unlikely it was from Oz;
http://www.ballaratweb.net/bcsbaa/breeds.html

Though the BWMS website says that they are also located in the States and Canada so there is a possibility;
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/blackwelshmountain/

aswatland · Apr 5, 2008

Here are some more pictures of the black fleece Irvin. The zips are Lightnings. It is very comfortable to wear. The black fleece is softer than on most Irvins I have handled.

Smithy · Apr 5, 2008

That's bloody superb Andrew!

It's really is in stunning condition and what a fit!

You've done exceptionally well with that one and also interesting to hear that the black wool is softer.

If only we could find out who were making black Irvins.

aswatland · Apr 5, 2008

Smithy said:
That's bloody superb Andrew!

It's really is in stunning condition and what a fit!

You've done exceptionally well with that one and also interesting to hear that the black wool is softer.

If only we could find out who were making black Irvins.

I suspect no maker specifically made black fleece Irvins. I guess some black fleeces were available and the maker made a few such jackets. I would guess it is the work of Irvin Air Chute. It has the smaller collar rings, square collar and wider seam tapes which were features of this maker. However there is no absolute proof that it was made by IAC and I doubt if there ever will be. It's a shame it does not have the spec label because the contract number would be helpful. Oh well its a fantastic, ultra rare jacket.

Edward · Apr 8, 2008

Looks superb! I've never seen another black fleece Irvin; I'd not even heard of them before this thread.

Was there anything about fleece colour in the original Irvin specs? Could it be that the white / lighter fleece colour was a specified norm early on, but at some later ponit in the war a number of black fleeces were used as that was what was vailable (I note here the multi-panel construction of this jacket - post 1942, right?).

Interesting that the fleece seems softer on this one... is this something that seems uniform on all the other (non-black) Irvins you have experienced? It's always hard to judge from just one example of anything, I know, but it seems to me at least possible that softness of fleece can vary with the breed of sheep it comes from.

With all this discussion of fleece colour, I'm reminded of one particular flock of sheep we saw during our Duke of Edinburgh Gold expedition, back in May 1992. The farmer who owned them had, I think, hit upon a fairly novel way of marking them out as his. It seemed that rather than put the traditional red splodge on their back, this lot had had their entire fleeces dyed pink (I'm sure i have a photo somewhere). A pink Irvin, now that would have been something bizarre.... lol

aswatland · Apr 8, 2008

Edward said:
Looks superb! I've never seen another black fleece Irvin; I'd not even heard of them before this thread.

Was there anything about fleece colour in the original Irvin specs? Could it be that the white / lighter fleece colour was a specified norm early on, but at some later ponit in the war a number of black fleeces were used as that was what was vailable (I note here the multi-panel construction of this jacket - post 1942, right?).

Interesting that the fleece seems softer on this one... is this something that seems uniform on all the other (non-black) Irvins you have experienced? It's always hard to judge from just one example of anything, I know, but it seems to me at least possible that softness of fleece can vary with the breed of sheep it comes from.

With all this discussion of fleece colour, I'm reminded of one particular flock of sheep we saw during our Duke of Edinburgh Gold expedition, back in May 1992. The farmer who owned them had, I think, hit upon a fairly novel way of marking them out as his. It seemed that rather than put the traditional red splodge on their back, this lot had had their entire fleeces dyed pink (I'm sure i have a photo somewhere). A pink Irvin, now that would have been something bizarre.... lol

Edward, A pink Irvin indeed! Not on my list of must haves! I believe my Irvin dates from 1941-3, but one can never be entirely sure. The short pile fleece of pre-war Irvins is usually soft, but tighter than on this one. I suspect the breed of sheep makes all the difference. There is nothing in the original patent about the colour of the fleece. Makers at this time (1941-3) used whatever was at hand. At least they had the good sense to make the whole jacket from black fleece and not create a black and honey coloured jacket. Now that would be rare indeed!

ethanedwards · Apr 8, 2008

Black sheepskin

Being a superstitious lot, I wonder if some aircrew were unhappy at being issued something unusual like this - or maybe it was regarded as a lucky talisman? I have very seldom seen them, in years of looking at wartime
photos - perhaps only in 2 or 3 at the most. Anyone got good pics of the black Irvin in use? Or any great Irvin shots at all, come to that......

ethanedwards · Apr 8, 2008

Pink Irvin

Couldn't tempt you with this then Andrew?

aswatland · Apr 8, 2008

ethanedwards said:
Couldn't tempt you with this then Andrew?

You have made a wonderful job of this on your PC! It does illustrate how horrendous a real pink Irvin would look!lol

aswatland · Apr 8, 2008

BTW this Irvin is the work of Wareing and Co of Pink Lane, Nottingham.

"Doc" Devereux · Apr 8, 2008

aswatland said:
BTW this Irvin is the work of Wareing and Co of Pink Lane, Nottingham.

lol :eusa_clap

By the way, Andrew, was that you who got the CC Irvin on Ebay last night? You'd have had a fight on your hands if I hadn't just bought those trousers!

aswatland · Apr 8, 2008

[QUOTE="Doc" Devereux]lol :eusa_clap

By the way, Andrew, was that you who got the CC Irvin on Ebay last night? You'd have had a fight on your hands if I hadn't just bought those trousers![/QUOTE]

Yes it was me. Very reasonable price too, despite the hype! I'll fix the zips and eventually post some pics on the forum. BTW an elastic collar strap sold recently on Ebay for more than I paid for this Irvin-pure madness!

"Doc" Devereux · Apr 8, 2008

I was amazed by how little you got it for, considering how good it looks. The only consolation I have for not getting it myself is that I know it's going to a good home.

I still prefer repro for rough'n'ready wear, but having seen the amazing state of original kit recently I must admit that I'm rethinking my opinion on their general robustness.

ethanedwards · Apr 8, 2008

I still prefer repro for rough'n'ready wear, but having seen the amazing state of original kit recently I must admit that I'm rethinking my opinion on their general robustness.[/QUOTE]

Doc, that Irvin I shamefully doctored is my own and I would have no problem
wearing it on a daily basis, if I lived in a much colder country. I have some
concerns about getting it wet I suppose, but it's certainly very robust and strong. The main problem living in the South is that it's generally much too warm, so I only really get to wear it maybe 20 times a year. What I really need is a dog.......!

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