Getting a tailor-made suit, part 2

Can you believe it? I'm in Hong Kong with my parents, and they're treating me to two custom suits! I don't know why, but the tailor's even throwing in two custom shirts! I doubt I've got all those little vintage details right, but I do know the details I like personally.

Unfortunately, I'm having one big problem. Call me immature, but we got into a huge argument about where to hang the trousers. I wanted it where my waist was narrowest; my parents and the tailor called me crazy in so many words.

I'll admit my knowledge is somewhat limited. All my research says trousers should 'sit on the waist.' Unfortunately, my sources never show me where that is.

For example, Alan Flusser wrote in Clothes and the Man:

Every man, no matter how thin, has a slight bulge in his stomach area. When trousers are worn on the waist, they pass smoothly over this bulge in an even drape. Furthermore, waist-worn trousers emphasize the smallness of the waist.

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Based on this and how growing up accustomed me to wearing all my pants over the top of or just above my pelvic area (which I assumed was my hip), I concluded he meant trousers should rise to the waistline. The problem is I have no idea whether I'm right.

So, please, I need your help. Where the heck should I hang my trousers??? I know I've always loathed hanging them from my hips, but that's the only thing I know for sure. Everything else has been conjecture and stuff. In fact, I'd appreciate any other pointers on the rest of the suit if you feel so inclined. Thanks for your time.

P.S. I get shy really easily, even on the Net. That's why I rarely show up. I feel really bad about it, so...sorry.

Personally...without having a specific exact reason or idea of what's right or knowing exactly what I wanted and why, I would probably follow the tailor's advice. In a situation like that, he's definitely the expert, or at least, more the expert than I would be in the situation. He's going to know better what looks correct and/or fits correct.

If he wanted to argue with me about where I want my shirt sleeve cuff and coat sleeve cuff to hit, then I'm going to stick to my guns and stand my ground unless he can explain and demonstrate a valid reason why his input might be better. And that's totally my opinion, and others may feel completely different for a variety of reasons.

The natural waist for natural-waisted trousers is above the pelvis. It is at the place on the human anatomy that is also, conveniently, known as the waist. I try to have my trousers' top edge be a bit above my navel. The Flusser quote tells you exactly why a man should get his pants tailored that high. High waisted trousers also mean that if you are reaching above your head and wearing a single-breasted suit jacket with the high waisted trousers, an idiotic triangle of shirt will not appear below the button of your jacket. Modern low waisted trousers whose top edge sits considerably below your navel will reveal an unslightly triangle of shirt; they will make your belly stick out if you have one; they don't look right with shorter 1930s and 1940s ties but only with very long modern ties. The ONLY time they may look strange is if you are wearing them without a jacket and you don't have suspenders/braces but are wearing an ugly shirt, no tie, and Winos or another ugly shoe.

The true waist.

Trousers hang best when the bottom of the waistband is situated just above the hipbone (Disregard the location of the navel, as this will vary among individuals.) From that point, the height of the waistband will impact the aesthetics (and comfort, to some degree).

Thanks for the great advice so far. I feel vindicated!

I've got another question to go with the high-waist question. I've seen some trousers with what I call double-thickness waistbands. Should I get those for my suit trousers or stick with today's standard thickness?

In general, I've found that the tailor knows best, and will strenuously object to you doing something that he doesn't like.

This happened to me when I wanted a four button jacket on my one made to measure suit. I had three of them gang up on me, and force me to lose a button, and shorten it by a couple of inches. lol

Fitting Day 1

Thanks for the different angles, guys. It was quite interesting thinking about them.

Well, fitting day has come and gone. I decided to stick with the trouser waist issue. My parents must have given up, or something, because they didn't really object. Here are two pictures my mother took.





Aw, crap. She didn't take any pictures of me with only the unfinished trousers. Oh, well. I'll get some next time.

Things went smoothly until we started talking about the jacket sleeve length and showing the shirt cuffs. I wear my shirt cuffs so they stop at my wrist, so I wanted the jacket sleeves shortened to show about a half-inch of cuff. My father, however, thought I ought to wear the shirt cuffs loose so they extended past the wrist, and then lengthen the jacket sleeves until they only showed a quarter-inch of cuff or some other minute amount.

I thought it was a ghastly idea. I must have been tired, or something, because I became hysterical. We argued until my father wisely decided to put off the sleeve length till later. It was, as he pointed out, an easily adjusted detail.

Another issue was the armholes. When I tried raising my right arm straight up, the jacket went up, too. I concluded the armholes were too big, so I tried requesting smaller armholes. My father, however, felt smaller armholes would yield tighter sleeves. He believed it would restrict arm movement. He seemed to make sense, and I didn't feel like arguing, so I let it slide. The armscye (or whatever I should call the lower part of the armhole) was only an inch or so away from my armpit, anyway.

Still, from what I'd read, the armscye should be right next to the armpit without really touching it, or something like that. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I wish I could show the tailor that nifty armhole measurement picture Matt Deckard posted waaaay back in 2004. Too bad I don't have a printer, the tailor doesn't really speak English, and I don't really speak Cantonese. lol I have this nightmare scenario in my head where I show her the picture, she stares at it blankly, then looks up at me like I'm an idiot.

Well, that's it for now. I'll post again (with pictures, of course) when I go for my second fitting. See ya later, and thanks again for your input!

An inch away is fine, it's also about how the scye is cut.

This is all getting fascinating... I'd go with the shorter sleeves to show more cuff myself. Can;t wait to see the finished product.

I'm with you on the sleeves.

Most men today wear them too long. Very nice gift by your parents, though.

Oscar Tong said:

Aw, crap. She didn't take any pictures of me with only the unfinished trousers. Oh, well. I'll get some next time.

Well, that's it for now. I'll post again (with pictures, of course) when I go for my second fitting. See ya later, and thanks again for your input!

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Pity she did not get pictures without the jacket from front and rear - the fit of the trousers is so often neglected.

I think you are right about the sleeve length so stand firm. Your view on the arm holes was also correct.

Maybe you parents will simply pay the bill....

Fitting Day 2

Today (or yesterday, depending on your perspective), I had my second fitting. First, here are two pictures of the grey suit's trousers, courtesy of my mother.





It's unfortunate my shirt chose to bunch up in the second picture. Every shirt I wear does that.

The rest of the fitting went quite smoothly. I got the sleeve length adjusted despite mild protests about the sleeves becoming "too short" when shortened to show half an inch of shirt cuff. I also noticed my waistline had expanded in the last two weeks. I guess I was too eager with the free hotel breakfasts. XD

It's almost two in the morning right now, and regrettably, I can't think of anything else to say. So, here are some more pictures.







This grey suit is a linen-silk-cotton blend, except I'm not sure about the cotton part. It's going to be my summer suit. Say, can I wear a white bow tie and white shoes with this getup and still be dressy, or should I stick with a black bow tie and black shoes?

Hmm, I guess I haven't shown you the other suit yet, have I? The jacket's really incomplete, but why not have a look?





This suit is pure wool, I think. It's going to be my winter suit. I was a little worried the lapels were too small, but the tailor said it was already in proportion. I am a terrible worrywart, so maybe it was nothing.

I'll pick up the finished suits on May 26 or 27. It's too late to make any more changes—I return to Vancouver on May 28! Let's hope it'll work out! [huh]

Stick to your guns, young man, and you'll awarded the Fedora Lounge Sartorial Cross for bravery in the face of overwhelming conventionality. If you read some of the old threads in the Suit forum, you'll know you're striking a blow for proper suit fit in a world of ill fitting clothes. The tailor DOESN'T necessarily know better.

dhermann1 said:

Stick to your guns, young man, and you'll awarded the Fedora Lounge Sartorial Cross for bravery in the face of overwhelming conventionality.

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lol

http://www.threadneedlemantailors.co.uk/

cannot plug this guy enough, specialised in mod but can do ANYTHING

Lapel panic

I'm having a really big panic attack about the black suit's lapels. After seeing the new suit Matt made for Dagwood and browsing several pictures of peak-lapel jackets in the Show Us Your Suits thread, I said to myself, "I knew the lapels on mine looked too small! #$@^#@#$^!!!!"

So, are they really too small, or am I just seeing things? I'm so worried, I could scream! Help! (Even if the truth's going to hurt, please tell me, anyway.)

P.S. Thanks for the posts up till now. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything else but those seemingly too small lapels. I'm sorry.

The lapels look too small imho.

Feraud said:

The lapels look too small imho.

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I knew it!! Thanks for verifying my perception, Feraud. I don't know if I can get them changed this late, though. I pick up the suits on Tuesday, and my ticket home is for Wendesday! (It's super-early Monday morning right now.)

I really wish I could trust myself more and weren't so susceptible to suggestion. (Sigh.) I should have listened to myself.

Hi Oscar

Both suits are coming togther well.


You seem to have a reasonable rise in the troursers - do you intend to wear them with braces (suspenders)? You could certainly have had them slightly higher or had a fishtail back but they will still look good. I think your judgement is gerenaly better than the tailor!

Presumably youy decided not to have back pockets in them? Views vary but they certainly look clean in appearance as a result.

The black suit lapels are a tad small unfortuantely but when the suit is complete the balance should look better and this be less apparent.

However yoiu have a nice par of suuts that fit you well so good luck.

It will be interesting to see the pictures when they are complete - can you post the same selction of views again please? Trousers without coat and as an ensemble? One or two of the inside of each of the jackets would be good as well.

The black lapels are not freakishly small or anything like that. They are fine. Bigger would have been better, I agree, but they are not horrible.