Panama hats ratings: my opinion

PB, if I read something into it that wasn't there, I apologize.

This is what I read:

Panamabob said:

Defensive? Ecuadorian blocked and finished is just not as good as our hatters in USA can do. No apologies, but you'll note the price difference is there for a reason.

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This is what, in my opinion, would have responded to the question without my comment.

Panamabob said:

Ecuadorian blocked and finished is just not as good as our hatters in USA can do. Note the price difference is there for a reason.

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You've stated many times that you have difficulty communicating your feelings. Maybe my difficulty is in over-interpreting your statements.

Now, I work all day long in a low social register, so you have to know that I shoot from the hip in order to simply communicate with my students. It carries over at times into my "regular" life. I did not grow up in a household where one minces words, dancing around things. Additionally, I did not grow up in a household where we were intentionally belittling or besparaging others.

I treat the members of this place as I do my friends and family: forthright and frank. They can handle it.

Justice has been done.

Bob, Art,

Thanks for honoring your own work. With that photo.
The King must not be seen often – now it has been done.
Just continue posting your highlights on your websites, in your newsletter - believe me it is good for us all.

Thank you again

Tom

Panamabob said:

I treat the members of this place as I do my friends and family: forthright and frank.

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Well then maybe you would be kind enough to explain this comment :

Panamabob said:

Why do two fellows put up the sarcastic smiley? At least one of them, well, nevermind, but news travels fast.

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[huh]

As to viewing photos, the technology is there such that if you take a well-focused shot at a high resolution, the viewer can download the photo and zoom in on it to the point of practically counting fibers within each straw. Posting such high res. photos on the Lounge may not be possible, due to the necessary limits of the site, but with just a 10mp camera and a tripod, they would certainly be easy enough to shoot. Then, each viewer could determine whether the hat was what he was looking for.

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I don't doubt you Lefty, there probably IS that sort of software and equipment so I'm sure it's possible, but then, with so much time & effort put into trying to appease or convince or whatever such a select few clients, who would make the hats? Doesn't trust come anywhere into the equasion? Doesn't collaberation with the vendor do much the same? WHY should we spend so much of our day trying to convince clients that already have their minds made up and most likely would never consider paying what the "perfect" hat is worth?
Let me be clear Lefty. Graham makes a wonderful panama. I consider him a friend and you will never hear disparaging words come from me concerning him or his hatting. He "cherry picks" the best made bodies, has them commisioned for him, makes them into wonderful pieces of art, and charges what they are worth. If you can't or won't pay his prices he will gracefully bid you adu. If you were to ask him to photograph each hat in such detail as to be able to count the weaves and be sure that you are the judge of quality, I'm afraid I know what THAT answer would be also and it would not be to your satisfaction. I know hatters that won't deal ( or hate to) deal with Loungers that demand specificity to the nth degree as there just isn't enough money in hats to spend all of you time convincing people.

I don't really know where else to go with this other than the expectations demanded through threads like this would be wonderful for the student/client but bankrupcy for the vendor/hatter. At some point we have to stop answering questions and debating qualities and go make hats.

Art,
I agree with much of what you've said about what is practical, which is why I would certainly only suggest photos of hats beyond a certain price or quality point.

Trust is something that must be established. Say, for example, that someone was considering a very expensive hat from Brent Black, but wasn't sure of BB quality vs. that of anyone else selling panamas. Absent being able to visit a store, knowing someone who owned a BB, or at least seeing some photos, wouldn't that person almost be required to buy a lesser, test hat before they felt that they could trust the vendor? It's either that, or hope that the vendor, with whom he'd never dealt, was friendly about returns. Word of mouth is one thing, but the proof is in the pudding.

At least one of them, well, nevermind, but news travels fast.

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Tomasso, you are welcomed to call me if you'd like to chat.

260-485-4636 Robert Weber

Word of mouth is one thing, but the proof is in the pudding.

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I'm on the fence with this statement Lefty as I'm getting multiple reactions from it. I think I can best explain them by going back to my masonry career and relating it that way.

The first ten years I was contracting I used the phone book advertising and spent much of my time, day and night, giving bids for people who were just looking for design ideas, bid costs, etc and had no idea of what their propositions would cost. All of this is fair, but with so much of my time being spent with potential customers that did not know what they wanted and couldn't possibly afford their ideas, it took it's toll on my family life. I went through two divorces because all of my time was spent spinning wheels, not taking care of family.
Then, the last 27 (approx) years of that career, with a new marriage in hand and a new committment to not waste my time I pulled all of my advertising, even my name from the white pages of the book and decided to either sink or swim based on word of mouth. From that point on, I controlled myself, not let the client control me, and let my work speak for itself, success started to become a reality. After only a few years those in the circle I had worked for had expanded to the point of having some clients wait for as long as two years for me to be able to do their work. Once they found my name ( through past clients) they already knew of my work, knew they needed me, and seldom hesitated to pay what the job was worth. I am STILL married to the same woman and very happily I might add, so I'm am one of the worlds biggest believers in word of mouth. Please note on this Lounge that I do not self promote. I do not ask clients to post pics for me, I give no price breaks for advertising for me. If I did it would mean nothing.

That said, if I screw up YOUR hat, I'm still a bum in your eyes so the "proof is in the pudding" part is true. Word of mouth only can give a reason to be confident that I won't.

Above, 350-400 weave hat from Hawaii.

Below, our hat, as blocked by Gus Miller.

see avatar

Art Fawcett said:

BT, your thoughts are so "spot on" its a bit frightening. You must have a direct port into my head. lol lol

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That's good to know, Art.
I realize our opinions have differed in the past.

I am not much of a Panama Hat afficianado, don't have a lot invested in the issues here but my interest is stirred by the frequency and voracity of what seem like attacks and demands on friendly(for the most part ), helpful vendors, whose intentions seem honorable, by those FL members I recognize as only having become interested in Panama Hats since joining up here.
It seems to take only a short time here to become an expert- able to argue with those in the trade.
I have observed this since the beginning of my time here.
I must be slow on the uptake.

I really hope that the friendly care, valuable inside-the-trade information offered here and favorable prices don't suddenly and "mysteriously" dry up and disappear before I have the chance to pick the collective brains and buy a nice hat from the likes of you and Bob. I believe that the vendors who make themselves available here are a resource worth cherishing. Yes, I'm having a good day.

I wouldn't imagine being able to get so much valuable knowledge and useful advise from those vendors who don't make themselves available here on the FL.
Maybe some folks should try it.


B
T

Art Fawcett "decided to either sink or swim based on word of mouth".
That's utterly and uncompromisingly ... fair.

Asking a "vendor" to spend a or "the" major part of his efforts in "advertising" his skills, knowledge, art, -whatever- is, in fact, ...wasting his... skills, knowledge, art... Probably the word "wasting" is too heavy-handed, and a rule of thumb would be that, yes, there is a relationship between "advertising" and "sales", and one can't do without the other.

But, in an environment of forero's (like the Fedora Store forums), well, I am quite willing to go by the "word of mouth" herein ...indicated. No guarantees, of course, but ... probabilities.

For the very, very top hats? Well, I guess one should see them, touch them, feel them...maybe there, the internet fails as a medium. Let's say, it "sparks interest". Heck, without this forum, I wouldn't have bought half a dozen hats these last months...and I would have never ever heard of Optimo, Art Fawcett nor Panama Bob and any of the others...

Art,
Again, for the most part, I agree with what you've posted. I'm also glad that you've found happiness in the way that you manage your life and work, and appreciate both your natural talents and your learned skills.

Here's the "however." I know nothing about masonry and less about your own masonry work. I do know, however, that a contractor with a bad reputation is easy to spot. One can contact the local BBB, check sites like Angie's List (I'm not sure if you have something similar, but here in Ohio, it's a customer satisfaction forum for contractors), a search of the local clerk of courts website, etc. The same holds true for many businesses.

Very small businesses, individuals, and internet ventures are frequently discussed on the web. Everyone judges ebay sellers by their feedback. With hats, however, it's quite a bit tougher. There's one name that stands out as a negative, though most of us on the Lounge know little of he who shall not be named. Mention Brent Black, and you're against feeding the children of the world. These reputations may be deserved, but they're being established by a very small population on the Lounge. I've seen only 1 gladhatter hat on the Lounge, from a short time member who loved it (Brand X). The same holds true for a BB panama. Again, aside from one old sharpetoys story, of which I only heard one side, I have no idea why the gladhatter is supposed to be such a bad guy.

The same lack of information holds true for good reputations. I have never seen a negative comment about you or your work, and have seen only a few about PB. However, information on the subject of unsatisfied customers is severely limited on the Lounge; witness the recent pile-on of one of PB's customers. Whether that customer's manner of posting it was accurate or proper, the Lounge attacked him for criticizing his experience with a vendor here. Please review the comments in which members state that they don't sympathize, that PB's reputation is beyond such criticism, etc. On ebay, the buyer posts a negative, the seller responds with a negative or explains, and the matter is then either positively resolved with another post, or the matter is closed. Either way, it's easy to see whether the transaction was a pleasant one or not. The number of such "blips" on someone's record is easy to see, and one can individually determine whether the number of those blips should preclude a transaction.

I think that the civility of the Lounge hinders everyone's ability to learn about hat sellers. This is not to say that civility is a bad thing, but if everyone follows the maxim that "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all", then all you get is a forum full of clapping hand emoticons. It's good to read all of the great experiences that all of us have had with various vendors, but it's the ones that I don't - and can't - hear about that worry me. Civility can include criticism, and must include an open exchange of ideas.

Art Fawcett said:

After only a few years those in the circle I had worked for had expanded to the point of having some clients wait for as long as two years for me to be able to do their work. Once they found my name ( through past clients) they already knew of my work, knew they needed me, and seldom hesitated to pay what the job was worth. I am STILL married to the same woman and very happily I might add, so I'm am one of the worlds biggest believers in word of mouth. Please note on this Lounge that I do not self promote. I do not ask clients to post pics for me, I give no price breaks for advertising for me. If I did it would mean nothing.

That said, if I screw up YOUR hat, I'm still a bum in your eyes so the "proof is in the pudding" part is true. Word of mouth only can give a reason to be confident that I won't.

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I put up some photos of a 350 or so wpsi hat and a superfino blocked by Gus Miller.

First Lefty, I have to be a bit puzzled over why this has gone this direction. Since you are a client of mine and as far as I know, you were pleased with the work , I don't fully understand.

That said, what you are saying is that, unless we bring out any dirt, and basicly turn the Lounge into a potential "spamfest" you don't feel you can trust the info here. Interesting.

Let me ask you, did Graham offer up all the times he had to work with a difficult customer or bad deal? Have you asked anyone in the know privately about GH and why he is banned? To put either out in public only serves to advertise ( yes, even bad news still keeps the name out there) and isn't appropriate here.
Every vendor/craftsman has had issues, are you sure it would serve well to publicise every bicker?

I don't

PanamaBob Hat recently reblocked by Graham Thompson

Here are some pics of a Montecristi purchased from PanamaBob over a year ago. I recently had it reblocked by Graham at Optiom Hats.

Art,
I think you're misinterpreting my discussion of a general idea with some perceived gripe. First, to be clear, I have no gripe. I've really enjoyed working with you on both a panama and a felt and both hats are great. I've also posted that I am pleased with the panama that I received from PB, and that it was a good value for the money.

Next, I do not expect to create a hostile environment by allowing people to discuss all, not just positive, experiences with anyone and everyone. We're all grown-ups here, and can, or should be able to, politely discuss the pros and cons of anything and everything relating to hats without resorting to defamation or just plain meanness.

Further, you are correct, I do not feel that I can fully trust certain information presented on the Lounge. If, for example, I wanted to find out about a certain type of car, I wouldn't fully trust a site where the dealers posted their opinions - especially one where anyone who complained about one of those dealers was shouted down. The site would be useful for gathering information, but would certainly not allay a great deal of risk. This is especially true in the world of internet, custom item shopping, where there is almost no opportunity to see previous work in person.

Graham did not offer up his negative experiences, but then again, I was in the room with him, holding his products. All of the negative mail/internet/phone order experiences that he may have had meant nothing, as I could inspect any hat and walk out the door with my purchase.

I have today privately requested information on GH, but part with you on the opinion that such information should remain private. As you've said, word of mouth and reputation are quite important. The only real information on GH that I've seen is the one post concerning one experience, and his great feedback on ebay. If he is someone to avoid, shouldn't Lounge readers be not only steered clear of him, but told why (through personal accounts, of course)?

The way that I found the Lounge, more than a year and a half ago, was when I went searching for info. on GH after seeing his site. Without further info., I didn't fully trust it. I held off on any type of custom hat for quite a while, when I decided to take a chance on you. At the time, despite your deserved, golden reputation here, I had searched for further info. on you all over the web.

Having personally dealt with you, I not only trust you, but like and admire you. While that's one more recommendation for you, I don't expect anyone to count up the positives here and make a decision. It's the negatives that we all search for when examining a seller and at some point, armed with all of the information we can find, we all take a risk. When that risk pays off, as it has with for me with you, trust is established. That's the proof in the pudding.

Everything else is just happy people talking up their great experiences - hearsay from people I've never met and know little about, and questions about how many people have some type of problem that won't or can't be discussed. I like a happy story, but I love hearing the whole story - regardless of the ending.

Art Fawcett said:

First Lefty, I have to be a bit puzzled over why this has gone this direction. Since you are a client of mine and as far as I know, you were pleased with the work , I don't fully understand.

That said, what you are saying is that, unless we bring out any dirt, and basicly turn the Lounge into a potential "spamfest" you don't feel you can trust the info here. Interesting.

Let me ask you, did Graham offer up all the times he had to work with a difficult customer or bad deal? Have you asked anyone in the know privately about GH and why he is banned? To put either out in public only serves to advertise ( yes, even bad news still keeps the name out there) and isn't appropriate here.
Every vendor/craftsman has had issues, are you sure it would serve well to publicise every bicker?

I don't

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Lucas,
Thanks for the photos.
That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.
That's the pudding.

"...she was probably the best belly dancer in all of Cairo, all of Egypt even, but don't try telling Fatima that."
"Panama hat! Did you say Panama hat! Slowly I turned, step by step I advanced on my tormentor..."

I kind of get the feeling that some good hatmakers are feeling pressured to do something. And also that some folks with good intentions, wanting to suggest something helpful, are getting misunderstood. Maybe this is the risk of website discussions.

Perhaps we should let them adopt whatever business model they are most comfortable with and get back to work? Maybe?

Just to clear up some possible confusion, here is a photo taken under the worst of conditions - relatively inexpensive compact digital camera with itty bitty sensor, handheld, outdoors on the spur of the moment. Enlarged section of a 356 wpi panama eBay Cuenca from Mr. Bob. Grosgrain ribbon provides sense of scale.



Clearly, no weave is too fine to be shown. No professional photographers need apply. If I were doing this to illustrate "typical" items, I'd have a permanent setup in a corner with a couple of clip-on lights in hardware-store reflectors, bit of gauze over one of them. I could photograph three shots of 10 hats and download the photos with around one minute of time invested per hat. Nobody should have to do that for every single item they sell! Just take it for what it's worth as an alternative way to show some of what you presently try to explain with words.

I understand that pointless disputation can arise from providing detailed information to folks that don't understand, so every maker or seller has to make the judgment call.

By the way, for an illustration of an alternative website model, consider that of the maker of my main flute: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/

Terry McGee provides nice photos of his various models, illustrates some individual flutes he has on hand, explains in detail the work that goes into making them, shows you his workshop and equipment, goes into the characteristics of different types, the history...more stuff than I can go into here. He's down in Australia, kind of away from the current wooden flutemaking centers. Largely because of his website plus reputation, he has more orders than he knows what to do with. Think his current waiting time for a keyed flute is around 3 or 4 years. Keyed flute will cost you upwards of three grand.

- Bill

Woodfluter By the way said:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/[/url]

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That is one content filled site.
I love it - and not just because I dig his beard.

You are right, and have stated your position well and delicately. This is not my site, it's certainly not my place to tell anyone how to run their affairs, and that was never my intention to do so. Apparently, I have either implied such an intention without meaning to, others have mistakenly inferred it, or both.

In any case, I will now let that sleeping dog that I've kicked get back to sleep.