When your told to put down the gun... DO IT!

reetpleat · Jan 5, 2009

I certainly don't mean any offense. I understand that German uniforms are cool and interesting. But I have known a few people in my day fascinated with German History etc. I am sure there are many cool normal sane wwii reenactors, but I think there are definitely some nuts out there who collect German uniforms, nazi memorabilia etc, and I am not prepared to let go of all suspicions that he was a nut job.

Do we have any Pacific NW reenactors. Does any one on the forum know him or know any who might have. Was he a reenactor?

Dixon Cannon · Jan 5, 2009

Indeed

Imahomer said:
Now there is an impartial and fair statement! No factual data, or basis behind it at all, but it clearly shows which way the writers views are slanted.

The writer falls squarely in support of individual liberty and a prohibition on the use of force - no secret there! We err if we truly believe that the state and it's police (force) are infallible - the whole history of the human race has proven otherwise as does some modern American history as well. The most patriotic thing a citizen can do is police the police, making sure that the privilege of sole use of force is not corrupted or abused. If others don't want to take on that responsibility or are uncomfortable with questioning authority, believe me, others of us have no such problem - which is probably how our unique Liberties have been preserved for so long, I might add.

-dixon cannon

Imahomer · Jan 5, 2009

reetpleat said:
I disagree. As threatening as a gun may be, if people assume he is a neo nazi or nutjob, they will have little sympathy. If here were a family man who loved hunting and were walking across the street to his buddy's door to show him his new gun, people will call the police to a much stricter review.

You sort of change the sutuation to make your point. lol If people "assume" a family man who loved hunting was a nut job, they'd still call the police. Especially if he had been firing rounds from his rifle.

_RAGNAR_ · Jan 5, 2009

There has been NO emphasis on his having been wearing a German uniform after the first few hours of reporting, mostly because the Seattle Police said it had no bearing and that they recognized that he had all types and era of stuff in his place. The German uniform thing has almost disappeared as his friends and associates have come forward to talk about him.

The whole thing was very unfortunate for everyone involved. Obviously Miles made a tragic mistake and paid the ultimate price. He will be missed by a lot of people as he was an extraordinary guy. He was very skilled and talented in a lot of areas. Unfortunately he suffered from some temporary stupidity on New Years and got himself killed. For those of us that have read all the reports so far, and have a background with the law, use of force, tactics, and with the police, it was an unfortunate but predictable outcome.

Charlie Noodles · Jan 5, 2009

People keep mentioning the nazi uniform. I think I read that police found uniforms from multiple countries among his belongings. More likely a Lounger than a neo-nazi.

DBLIII · Jan 5, 2009

"Unfortunate but predictable..."
Absolutely. If I were LE and had someone pointing a rifle in my direction, I'd give them a second's warning and fire. As a civilian, I would just open fire.
Sounds like a really bad series of events.

Imahomer · Jan 5, 2009

reetpleat said:
Perhaps the word often is a mistake, but I think we can all agree that the Police are as capable of making bad judgement calls or mistakes, or willingly wrong decisions, even if rarely. So, an investigation to get at the truth is in order, and if the facts warrant, the officers should be exonerated so there will never be any question about their role in the incident.

the police are given a great power, and must always live up to the highest standards. If an impartial investigation shows they lived up to those standards, all the better for public relations and the officers peace of mind. If it is shown that they did not, then better training, and discipline should be taken and full disclosure should be given. Only this way will the police and the public be on good terms.

Just for information, an investigation is always done after an officer involved shooting. Especially in a large department like Seattle. Secondly, I'm not sure if it was bad grammar on your part, or you really believe that police willingly make the wrong decision. I'm not really sure why you would even throw that out there, unless you basing it on tv programs. That really would be an exceptional case, which could lead not only to the officers termination, but to legal action against the officer as well.

_RAGNAR_ · Jan 5, 2009

Miles did at least one German impression along with Cossack, Russian, civil war, and American plains indian, and I'm sure 3 times that I don't know about.

He dressed vintage most every day and was a model. Spoke a couple languages and played half dozen instruments.

Imahomer · Jan 5, 2009

Dixon Cannon said:
The writer falls squarely in support of individual liberty and a prohibition on the use of force - no secret there! We err if we truly believe that the state and it's police (force) are infallible - the whole history of the human race has proven otherwise as does some modern American history as well. The most patriotic thing a citizen can do is police the police, making sure that the privilege of sole use of force is not corrupted or abused. If others don't want to take on that responsibility or are uncomfortable with questioning authority, believe me, others of us have no such problem - which is probably how our unique Liberties have been preserved for so long, I might add.

-dixon cannon

A swing and a miss! I like what you wrote, but it doesn't have anything to do with what I said. My point was merely that the writer had made up his mind prior to obtaining any real facts. That's all, nothing else.

handlebar bart · Jan 5, 2009

Having a Dad who dealt with a man armed with a rifle in his police station one night and a brother who is now a cop I have no problem with the police shooting an armed and reportedly drunk man who had already fired shots that night. This will be investigated just as all shooting do, but it seems to me it is better that the cause of the problem is shot and not an innocent person who just had the misfortune of being nearby. Nice drunk people kill others and themsleves all the time

Dixon Cannon · Jan 5, 2009

Imahomer said:
A swing and a miss! I like what you wrote, but it doesn't have anything to do with what I said. My point was merely that the writer had made up his mind prior obtaining any real facts. That's all, nothing else.

Sorry! You must have missed this part; "I'll reserve judgement until I'm able to read an official independent report."

-dixon cannon

reetpleat · Jan 5, 2009

Imahomer said:
You sort of change the sutuation to make your point. lol If people "assume" a family man who loved hunting was a nut job, they'd still call the police. Especially if he had been firing rounds from his rifle.

I am exactly talking about that. The assumption of being a nut job. No one would consider missionaries, or boy scouts to be nut jobs. Nor should they necesserily assume a guy who collects german uniforms is. But in our culture, tell someone the guy was in a german wwii uniform and he is likely to be branded a nut for that.

That is my point. I don't think that is what you mean to disagree on. Surely, anyone going door to door with a gun is assumed to be nutty, but not because of how they are dressed. it would be the gun.

But in this situation, many people will say, what a shame, then you tell them about the uniform, and they would have a different reaction, as in "must have been a nut."

reetpleat · Jan 5, 2009

Charlie Noodles said:
People keep mentioning the nazi uniform. I think I read that police found uniforms from multiple countries among his belongings. More likely a Lounger than a neo-nazi.

I am not so convinced. Depressed, formerly suicidal, and wearing a wwii uniform, commonly associated with naziism and anti semitism? I think that adds up to a possibility this guy was not a well adjusted kid. Which would explain his actions better.

Not to malign all owners of german uniforms, but let's face obvious facts. Some nuts are drawn to such things.

as for other uniforms and his friends. Well, it could be they are spinning it to make him sound less disturbed.

reetpleat · Jan 5, 2009

Imahomer said:
Just for information, an investigation is always done after an officer involved shooting. Especially in a large department like Seattle. Secondly, I'm not sure if it was bad grammar on your part, or you really believe that police willingly make the wrong decision. I'm not really sure why you would even throw that out there, unless you basing it on tv programs. That really would be an exceptional case, which could lead not only to the officers termination, but to legal action against the officer as well.

I am sure it is rare. But it would be naive to think that no police ever willingly shoot when they feel that an alternative is present.

Most often I am sure it is bad judgement. But we must allow for all possabilities and then investigate all facts.

reetpleat · Jan 5, 2009

_RAGNAR_ said:
Miles did at least one German impression along with Cossack, Russian, civil war, and American plains indian, and I'm sure 3 times that I don't know about.

He dressed vintage most every day and was a model. Spoke a couple languages and played half dozen instruments.

I really did not investigate much. If that is the case, it sounds like he was not a nut. Still, suicidal and depressed may have been at the root of his behavior.

Son_of_Atropos · Jan 5, 2009

Baron Kurtz said:
Well, here in London we have recent (and past) evidence of where and where not to believe the word of the police in these cases. (No information as to armed police, no warning, no confirmation of suspect status: shoot 7 times in head on busy train. Guns and stupidity (idiot police) don't mix)

I await an investigation on the case presented here.

His vest isn't short, his trousers waist is too low.

bk

My mistake.

Imahomer · Jan 5, 2009

Dixon Cannon said:
Sorry! You must have missed this part; "I'll reserve judgement until I'm able to read an official independent report."

-dixon cannon

Nope. I saw it. However when someone says: "And, sadly true, the police in America often do make bad judgement calls, errors and felonious decisions. Taking the "police account" at face value is dangerous and irresponible and often the first step in relinquishing precious Liberty." It shows what their thinking already is.

reetpleat · Jan 5, 2009

I would assume they have extensive training in rules of engagement, when to shoot how etc.

the investigation should be on how closely they followed their training and policy.

and of course, if it at some point is commonly held by the public that the rules are not appropriate, that should be revised through elections, appointments, oversight boards etc. It should not affect any current situation except how closely they followed rules and policy and good judgement. That is all we should ask of our police officers.

Tango Yankee · Jan 5, 2009

This is a no-win situation for the police

In this country we have investigations following police shootings to determine whether or not it was a "good" shooting, i.e., justified. If not, then action is generally taken and that action depends upon the findings.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter to some people if the investigation finds that the police acted properly... if that happens, then they'll just start yelling "cover-up" because to them the police are always in the wrong.

DC says he falls squarely in support of individual liberty and a prohibition on the use of force. I'm not quite sure what he means by that, but it sounds as though he thinks that the police should not respond to any situation with force. Perhaps he feels it is an infringement upon individual liberty that they respond at all.

It has been my observation that the ratcheting up of the use of force by the police has generally been in response to the increasing use of force and of increasingly lethal weaponry by the criminal element. (Or does individual liberty include the right to commit crimes against others?) Unfortunately, the increasing proliferation and inappropriate use of weapons over the past decades has resulted in our police forces understandably becoming reluctant to stick their necks out too far in the off chance that the person raising a rifle and pointing it at them is a "nice guy" who doesn't really mean it. If a weapon is raised, or even something that looks like a weapon such as the realistic toy .38 revolvers that were popular when I was a kid is raised, it is likely the police will respond with force as to assume that it (the "weapon") is anything but lethal and that the intent is not lethal is foolhardy at best.

I tend to be somewhat liberal in my thinking as well, but I also believe that police officers have a right to protect themselves so they can go home after the end of a shift instead of to the hospital or morgue.

The investigation is just beginning on this one, but based on the little that has been reported (the audio witness who heard the police order the guy to drop his weapon before firing, the police who said that he raised his weapon again) leads me to believe that it will be ruled as a justified shooting. Little comfort to the family and friends of the young man, and, I might add, little comfort to the police officers who now must spend the rest of their lives dealing with the fact that they killed a human being no matter the circumstances. It may turn out to be justified, but I'd be willing to bet that they'll be second-guessing themselves for a long time to come.

Regards,
Tom

reetpleat · Jan 5, 2009

Tango Yankee said:
In this country we have investigations following police shootings to determine whether or not it was a "good" shooting, i.e., justified. If not, then action is generally taken and that action depends upon the findings.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter to some people if the investigation finds that the police acted properly... if that happens, then they'll just start yelling "cover-up" because to them the police are always in the wrong.

DC says he falls squarely in support of individual liberty and a prohibition on the use of force. I'm not quite sure what he means by that, but it sounds as though he thinks that the police should not respond to any situation with force. Perhaps he feels it is an infringement upon individual liberty that they respond at all.

It has been my observation that the ratcheting up of the use of force by the police has generally been in response to the increasing use of force and of increasingly lethal weaponry by the criminal element. (Or does individual liberty include the right to commit crimes against others?) Unfortunately, the increasing proliferation and inappropriate use of weapons over the past decades has resulted in our police forces understandably becoming reluctant to stick their necks out too far in the off chance that the person raising a rifle and pointing it at them is a "nice guy" who doesn't really mean it. If a weapon is raised, or even something that looks like a weapon such as the realistic toy .38 revolvers that were popular when I was a kid is raised, it is likely the police will respond with force as to assume that it (the "weapon") is anything but lethal and that the intent is not lethal is foolhardy at best.

I tend to be somewhat liberal in my thinking as well, but I also believe that police officers have a right to protect themselves so they can go home after the end of a shift instead of to the hospital or morgue.

The investigation is just beginning on this one, but based on the little that has been reported (the audio witness who heard the police order the guy to drop his weapon before firing, the police who said that he raised his weapon again) leads me to believe that it will be ruled as a justified shooting. Little comfort to the family and friends of the young man, and, I might add, little comfort to the police officers who now must spend the rest of their lives dealing with the fact that they killed a human being no matter the circumstances. It may turn out to be justified, but I'd be willing to bet that they'll be second-guessing themselves for a long time to come.

Regards,
Tom

I suspect he meant something along the lines of a prohibition of unjustified force.

I agree. This is a no win situation. But that is the way it is. I think we generally find a balance. I think this one sounds like a pretty straightforward case. But only a full investigation by police and a civilian review is likely to satisfy most citizens. If they do that, I think most citizens will be satisfied. But when they try to do way with civilian review boards and such, that is when the public becomes wary.

When your told to put down the gun... DO IT!

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