Show us your Guns!

matrioshka · Apr 17, 2009

....and my background is in pretty heavy-duty historicist reenacting....where the MOST common thing is what one should be aiming for. I always thought pump guns looked like plumbing--still do!--but that was the American thing for average folks. "Skeet"[/QUOTE said:
Why do you say that? I would have figured a single shot would have been the most common, followed by the low end SXS. Or do you mean what was common with gun savvy folks of the era?

M

mikey517 · Apr 17, 2009

Mikey congrats on the retirement. 19 or 23? I carry a 23 on duty here still.

It's the 23. The Glock 22 was our issued uniform sidearm, and I left uniforms behind in 1981 'till I retired in 2001.

I qualify twice a year with it to keep my RPO carry privilege active, and I've never had any problem with it. Easy gun to shoot, too.

We went from S&W .38's (1975) to Sig Sauer 9mm's (1985-ish) to Glock .40 (1990).

"Skeet" McD · Apr 17, 2009

matrioshka said:
Why do you say that? I would have figured a single shot would have been the most common, followed by the low end SXS. Or do you mean what was common with gun savvy folks of the era?

No, pretty much as stated; shotguns were much more common than rifles, and (thanks to cheap mostly Belgian imports) SxSs ruled the field; you got an extra shot. If you had only one gun (and most folks did)...that's the one you wanted.

When American mass production came into play...cheap, interchangable parts allowed the average person to buy a repeater...even MORE extra shots...at an even cheaper price. This, to me, is what makes the repeater such an AMERICAN gun: we traded in tradition-bound, exquisite hand-work in elegant styles of guns for a design--however unaesthetic--that could be manufactured by large machines, quickly and relatively cheaply. They took over the market quite quickly.

An excellent book covering all these points (I may be telling you something you already know, of course) is Bob Hinman's The Golden Age of Shotgunning; his final chapter is titled The Decline of the Double...and covers all of this very well. A very high recommendation for your library, if you don't have it....

http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/submitRare.cgi?author=Hinman&title=The+Golden+Age+of+Shotgunning&keyword=&isbn=&order=TITLE&ordering=ASC&dispCurr=USD&binding=Any+Binding&min=&max=&timeout=20&store=Abebooks&store=AbebooksDE&store=AbebooksFR&store=AbebooksUK&store=Alibris&store=Amazon&store=AmazonCA&store=AmazonUK&store=AmazonDE&store=AmazonFR&store=Antiqbook&store=Biblio&store=Biblion&store=Bibliophile&store=Bibliopoly&store=Booksandcollectibles&store=Half&store=ILAB&store=LivreRareBook&store=Powells&store=Strandbooks&store=ZVAB

"Skeet"

matrioshka · Apr 17, 2009

Metallic cartridges are the Devil's work...

And now for some really old stuff:

From left to right:

Jack Hubbard club butt fowler made from a officer's fusil I took a dislike to. 16gauge Getz barrel with a L&R Jaeger lock.

Larry Williams .54 smoothbore. Hydraulic tubing barrel with a L&R Queen Anne lock. Supposed to be in the New England style, but I have my doubts. Shoots very well, that's all that counts.

Another club butt fowler. .75 calibre, made from a repro Brown Bess. Crying shame, someone bought a Rifle Shoppe kit and proceeded to butcher the thing. When they drilled the underlugs for the tenon pins, they drilled through the barrel, turning a $300 barrel into a piece of rebar. I handed the remains to Jack Hubbard and let him have at it.

Long Land Pattern musket. Iron mounted, I. Wilson marked lock, built by John Bosh several years ago. It really should have brass mounts, but I didn't care when I bought it, I just wanted a Long Land. I may trade up for something else, seeing as I just picked up a Prussian M-1740.

I do need to get out and shoot the holy black. Might as well, considering what modern ammo is going for. I need to cast bullets as well, the neighbors really love when I do that...

M

matrioshka · Apr 17, 2009

Skeet,

I should clarify. I meant single shot shotgun.

M

"Skeet" McD · Apr 17, 2009

matrioshka said:
Skeet, I should clarify. I meant single shot shotgun. M

Dear M,
Thanks for the clarification...and that's how I understood you. It looks like you--and your VERY beautiful MLs--live in a much earlier world than the one I was talking about (in my original post, roughly 1918-1935; and in my elaboration to answer your question, say....1880 to 1920). For that earilier period, I agree: single shot shotguns, by and large, here in America.

One thing that speaks to the preponderance of multi-shot shotguns in the early 20C here is the incredible rapidity with which Skeet took over the country in the darkest days of the Depression: first publicized nationally in 1926, by 1931 there were already 600 skeet fields, in 46 of the 48 states; by 1934 there were nearly 1,000. One of the things that helped Skeet grow so quickly was that you didn't have to buy a new gun: most folks shot with their regular hunting guns...and, of course, the game requires you to shoot doubles: i.e., most people had multi-shot shotguns.

For what it's worth...when I do 1850s period sporting life, I have two personae: one, a rich city "sport"--who carries a doublegun. Then, a local N-E farmer, say, one of Thoreau's Concord neighbors...who shoots a Worcester Co. single gun.

I think, in fact, we probably agree on the preponderance of guns at a given time and place....

Hey: get out there and burn some black powder. Don't you miss the smell o' sulphur? And, yes: I thought breech-loading weapons were the work of the Devil for some 30 years, as well: still do (a little bit)

: none of them are as beautiful, I think, as earlier weapons. But....when I needed to learn to shoot something other than imaginary Red Coats and Rebels...I decided the quickness of breechloading guns might be worth investigating...and you know: I've come to rather like them for themselves. And, when you look at the increased ease and decreased danger of breechloading guns vs. muzzleloading guns...you can see why history went the way it did. Lucky us: we can have the best of all worlds....

Cheers,
"Skeet"

SamMarlowPI · Apr 17, 2009

i went on a cleaning frenzy this past weekend for whatever reason...maybe i thought zombies were coming...

but boy am i glad i did...my S&W 9mm was dirty as hell...seriously, it was disgusting...i'm glad i didn't have to use it...

and then my Rem870 was full of paint chips but i expected that...

:eusa_doh: :eusa_doh:

Diamondback · Apr 17, 2009

Yeah, Sam--just 'cause them undead buggers ain't that bright don't mean you can give in to a false sense of security... lol

"Skeet" McD · Apr 17, 2009

SamMarlowPI said:
i went on a gun cleaning frenzy this past weekend for whatever reason...maybe i thought zombies were coming...

but boy am i glad i did...my S&W 9mm was dirty as hell...seriously, it was disgusting...i'm glad i didn't have to use it...

and then my Rem870 was full of paint chips but i expected that...

:eusa_doh: :eusa_doh:

Yeah....uhhh....thanks for the kick in the butt reminder. Back when I was shooting Skeet at least once a week...and usually two or three...it was all so easy. But...it's been awhile, and I think I need to get down there and see what's lurking.

After more than a quarter century shooting BP exclusively, I was the laughing stock of breechloading hunters and shooters: if I shot so much as a round, I'd have the thing stripped and give it a thorough cleaning and wipe with Rig.

Like Matrioshka mentioned recently....smokeless powder is the devil's work. Or words to that effect....

"Skeet"

SamMarlowPI · Apr 17, 2009

always willing to help lol

shortbow · Apr 17, 2009

Interesting hot stove dialogue hereabouts, but nobody's mentioned the best of both worlds. Black powder IN cartridges.

One time, I recollect, I wuz hunting with a couple of old boys, one of whom had been the head of our Provincial game department for twenty years, was a hunting fool and was a renowned shot.

Herd of mallards came into the blocks, lots of smokeless racket ensued, very few birds stayed behind with their man-made brethren. Then, I ups with my old Elsie sportin' damascus tubes and loaded with black in paper carts. Made a double on a pair of drakes out at the sixty or seventy yard mark. Old retired game cop allowed "I couldn't of hit those birds with a .30-06."

Never heard no griping about the smoke and stench after that.

I love the smell of sulfur in the morning. Doesn't mean I have to give up the firepower of these new cartridges.

"Skeet" McD · Apr 17, 2009

shortbow said:
Interesting hot stove dialogue hereabouts, but nobody's mentioned the best of both worlds. Black powder IN cartridges....I love the smell of sulfur in the morning. Doesn't mean I have to give up the firepower of these new cartridges.

Dear SB,
Great story...would have liked to have been there, for a number of reasons

.

I have all the stuff to reload BP shotshells in the basement...including various manuals...but have never gotten around to it; it falls, as it were, right between the periods I "do;" (1850s on the one hand and 1920s on the other...). Although, as you know, BP stuck around long after the general introduction of smokeless...One of the earlier sets of rules for Skeet (don't have it in front of me, but 1934 or before, if memory serves) specifically prohibits use of BP for the game....a number of years after the game got going. I don't think they did that "just in case..."

Anyway, on a closing note: good for you for doing what you wanted to do, and taking the FLAK that goes with....if I had a nickel for every time I was told "when are you going to get a REAL trap gun?" when I was learning the game with a SxS (low-gun), I'd be a rich man....Until my first straight

.

Diamondback · Apr 17, 2009

If only there were a blackpowder with the power-efficiency of smokeless... if I could get Federal to commercialize a load with blackpowder pushing an HST for my 1911, I'd seriously consider it. (After eight shots, even if I haven't connected I should have a decent smokescreen...lol)

----------------
Now playing: John Williams - Anakin's Betrayal
via FoxyTunes

rumblefish · Apr 18, 2009

[QUOTE="Skeet" McD]Yeah....uhhh....thanks for the kick in the butt reminder. [/QUOTE]

Guilty as well.

I haven't touched my duck gun since the last day of the season, and it wasn't to clean it. And steel loads have to be the dirtiest rounds to put through any gun.

matrioshka · Apr 23, 2009

More in keeping with the era...

I just acquired this one:

A Smith and Wesson M&P, .38 Special with a six inch barrel. S/N in the low 300,000 range. I think I was the first person to take off the sideplate since it left the factory.

M

carebear · Apr 23, 2009

Beautiful revolver.

I assume you used a twisting, prying motion to remove the sideplate?

matrioshka · Apr 23, 2009

carebear said:
Beautiful revolver.

I assume you used a twisting, prying motion to remove the sideplate?

Of course. Just stick the screwdriver right up there and pry

On a serious note:

It was neat to see the variation in lock work compared to a newer Model 10. On both guns, the return spring for the hand is in two different places. The older M&P has a plunger in the sideplate. The inside wasn't that filthy, just gummed up old oil everywhere.

M

cecil · Apr 23, 2009

I'm not a gun person but that's gorgeous! Looks like something out of Double Indemnity or Casablanca. How old is it?

carebear · Apr 23, 2009

matrioshka said:
Of course. Just stick the screwdriver right up there and pry

On a serious note:

It was neat to see the variation in lock work compared to a newer Model 10. On both guns, the return spring for the hand is in two different places. The older M&P has a plunger in the sideplate. The inside wasn't that filthy, just gummed up old oil everywhere.

M

That would be an interesting side-by-side comparison, looking at the lockwork.

It's old enough to be worn in, but were there noticiable differences in the interior fit and finish? Actually I guess that might depend on the age of the Mdl. 10 as well.

matrioshka · Apr 23, 2009

Cecil,

I'm not sure. Probably 1930's. It's in the 312,000 range if anyone would know.

Carebear,

Not really. If anything there's more evidence of hand fitting on the older piece. What I'd love to do is compare it to a newer piece, say one of the ones with the integral lock.

M

Edited to correct the serial number, and probable date of mfg.

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