BROWN with BLACK or VICE VERSA?

J.T.Marcus · Aug 6, 2007

I was a kid when movies went from black and white to color. One of the first things I noticed was that, on that great big screen, men were wearing brown hats with black (or gray, or blue) suits, and black or gray hats with suits that were various shades of brown. They still do it today. Each of the following contains at least one example.

From "The Untouchables"

And from "Seabiscuit"

Do you and I have the courage? If you do, how about sharing a picture with us?

Fletch · Aug 7, 2007

Brown hat over grey is a lot easier than grey hat over brown. For the latter, it helps if the band is self colored. These days, a grey hat pretty much always has a black band. The grey/black combo clashes subtly with a brown outfit, in the same way black shoes or belt would do.

I rebanded one of my grey hats in cocoa brown ribbon expressly for wear with browns, such as flight jackets or khakis.

In the 1930s, the standard "one hat with everything" recommendation was medium-to-dark brown with a black band. It really does work pretty well with a wide array of color schemes. Problem is, no brown hat is sold with a black band today. You'll have to change it out yourself.

I could see a cinnamon brown hat (bright red-brown) with a black suit or overcoat, especially if you got a little creative in your accessory/shoe choices. Spin the color wheel and see what looks good.

Mike in Seattle · Aug 7, 2007

Having watched a couple modern films this weekend that were set back in the day, I found that very topic (brown-tone hat - gray/blue/black suit) annoying. My great Uncle Ray was a haberdasher and so my grandfather & dad picked up tips from him as to right and wrong, and the biggie I remember (outside of "there's no such thing as a short-sleeved dress shirt") was coordinating your hat with your suit. Brown & earthtone shirts = brown, tan or earthtone hat; gray, blue or black suit meant gray, blue or black hat. Shoes followed the same guidelines, although cordovan, oxblood, etc. shoes were acceptable with either in most cases.

And this weekend - there's Powers Boothe in the 80's Phillip Marlowe series with the same brown/olive Fedora in every episode with blue, gray, blue-gray and black suits (so far), and interestingly enough - never a brown or earth-tone suit in the series, with which said hat would look right...at least in my mind. My grandmother (Mom's side of the family) bought me a gray and brown Argyle vest in high school just to further drive me insane...and I can honestly report I never wore it just because, to my eye, it was wrong.

But am I way off base here?

Vladimir Berkov · Aug 7, 2007

If you look at Esquire/Apparel Arts plates, you see everything matched with everything.

I have heard it is more proper to match a hat to the overcoat than to the suit, but even this rule does not seem all that strictly enforced.

Edward · Aug 7, 2007

Fletch said:
In the 1930s, the standard "one hat with everything" recommendation was medium-to-dark brown with a black band. It really does work pretty well with a wide array of color schemes. Problem is, no brown hat is sold with a black band today. You'll have to change it out yourself.

The other question that occurs to me is whether black suits were all that common back in the thirties (tuxes aside - which the common man was unlikely to own - and those who did could probably afford more than one hat).

IMO, grey is pretty forgiving. I'm not sure where I picked it up from, but I have this image in my mind of the classic 30s noir detective in a charcoal grey suit, ivory or khaki trench, and a dark brown Fedora very like the Indy hat. I can see brown looking wrong with a black suit, but grey is very forgiving, IMO. I'm pretty sure that a lot of what we see in old black and white movies and think of as matching black.... back in those days, a lot of things intended to be seen on screen were selected on the basis of how they would look in B&W, not colour. (This went on outside clothes too - Gibson made a number of guitars in a pale yellow colour dubbed "TV Yellow" because on a fifties black and white TV, they looked like a nice, shiny white guitar - true white guitars looked washed out and 'fuzzy' in shape. I also read somewhere that a lot of the early B&W screen goddesses were wearing blue lipstick on screen as it looked better in B&W than red).

Vladimir Berkov said:
I have heard it is more proper to match a hat to the overcoat than to the suit, but even this rule does not seem all that strictly enforced.

That makes sense to me. I'm sure the ideal back in the day was still very much for everything to coordinate, much as some of us today will buy several different hats to go with different outfits. But for the common man that could only afford one hat which then had to go with "everything", it seems to me that back then brown would have been a more natural choice. I certainly don't hold myself out as an expert, but it seems to me that people in those days wore a lot more greys and browns than they did blues and black, which would made a dark brown hat a good bet, whereas nowadays, now that we wear more blacks and blues, a black hat would be more flexible.

JMO.

Flieger · Aug 7, 2007

I was browsing through a couple of mail order catalogues the other day (one from 1934, the other from 1945), and the only colours avaliable on hats where:

1934:
Black
Dark grey
Silver grey

1945:
Navy
"Fashion brown"
Mid grey

I dunno, but I figure a lot of people here in Sweden didn't have a well sorted hat store to go to if they didn't live in a major city, so they had to resort to getting mail order hats (not too different from my situation today). The choice of colours offered in these catalogues pretty much cover every need.
[huh]

Flieger

Fast · Aug 7, 2007

Black Suits

Yah, lots of folks had them, and as their only suit. They called 'em their wedding and funeral suits. I think they can even be rented in tux stores.

Odd reflection: The cool thing about being a guy used to be that what you wore wasn't the issue. Men used not to be influenced greatly by fashion, if at all. And here we are obsessed with the fashion of men who could not have cared less about it.

Carpe diem
Fast

J.T.Marcus · Aug 7, 2007

Fast said:
. And here we are obsessed with the fashion of men who could not have cared less about it.

You said a mouth full, brother!:eusa_clap

jamespowers · Aug 7, 2007

Hmmmm....

Fletch · Aug 7, 2007

Let's not overgeneralize about men (altho I know we're in a moment in history when it's somewhat fashionable to do so).

There certainly was such a thing as being well dressed then, and you could tell who was and who cared. Of course that's different from "fashion." They also kept it quieter - it wasn't the kind of thing you talked about too openly or too often for fear of being thought frivolous.

The rest? I guess they were lucky to live in an era when the general level of taste was somewhat higher.

jamespowers · Aug 7, 2007

Fletch said:
Let's not overgeneralize about men (altho I know we're in a moment in history when it's somewhat fashionable to do so).

There certainly was such a thing as being well dressed then, and you could tell who was and who cared. Of course that's different from "fashion." They also kept it quieter - it wasn't the kind of thing you talked about too openly or too often for fear of being thought frivolous.

The rest? I guess they were lucky to live in an era when the general level of taste was somewhat higher.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

J.T.Marcus · Aug 13, 2007

This is sort of what I had in mind; black suit, khaki tan shirt, dark blue and khaki tan tie, dark brown fedora, and brown alligator and ostrich shoes.

Feraud · Aug 13, 2007

J.T.Marcus said:
I was a kid when movies went from black and white to color. One of the first things I noticed was that, on that great big screen, men were wearing brown hats with black (or gray, or blue) suits, and black or gray hats with suits that were various shades of brown. They still do it today. Each of the following contains at least one example.

Do you and I have the courage? If you do, how about sharing a picture with us?

Black hat, brown suit -

Gray hat, blue suit -

See Mr.Rover (second from the left), brown hat, gray suit -

J.T.Marcus · Aug 13, 2007

Feraud, Glad to meet you and delighted to see your pictures. Exactly what I was hoping for! Isn't it wonderful that some of us have the nerve?

Benny Holiday · Aug 13, 2007

I think it's just a matter of personal taste. For me, the brown with black doesn't work. I wear a grey hat with a blue suit, they compliment each other well to my eye, and tend to mix brown, tan and greens. With a black suit, it's a black hat and, rarely, a darker grey hat. But that's just me; other guys have their own likes and dislikes.

I do have to say that the brown hat with grey suit effect, as worn by Ray looks really good. I haven't seen the brown suit with grey hat combo before, so I don't know if it would appeal to my own idea of what would look right for me or not.

HamletJSD · Aug 13, 2007

This is likely taboo, but do you ever see a black fedora with a different colored ribbon?

I can't recall ever seeing one (except a Panama maybe?) ...

J.T.Marcus · Aug 13, 2007

I remember seeing gray (in both light and dark shades, and one two-tone), and white, often with a matching grossgrain binding around the brim. If you want a new one, you might find one ready made in WOOL for about $40. If you want fur, there's the custom route...

hattrick · Oct 18, 2009

Fletch said:
Brown hat over grey is a lot easier than grey hat over brown......

In the 1930s, the standard "one hat with everything" recommendation was medium-to-dark brown with a black band. It really does work pretty well with a wide array of color schemes. Problem is, no brown hat is sold with a black band today. You'll have to change it out yourself.

Lucky me, I have a medium/dark brown hat with a black band and I'm trying to see what I can get away with wearing.
I've got this jacket:

that I'd like to pair with this hat: (dark brown)

I'll probably skip that blue shirt, and wear just a plain white one.

Thoughts? ideas? would this match?

Gilgamark · Oct 18, 2009

Vladimir Berkov said:
I have heard it is more proper to match a hat to the overcoat than to the suit, but even this rule does not seem all that strictly enforced.

Agreed because, in my mind, I wear the hat outside, when, obviously, I am also wearing the overcoat. Inside, I take the hat and overcoat off. It makes more sense to match the hat and overcoat.

As for gray, it depends on the shade. A black-toned gray calls for gray or black hat. A brown-tone gray calls for a brown hat.

J.T.Marcus · Oct 18, 2009

Glad to see this thread revived. There are some great pics in here.

BROWN with BLACK or VICE VERSA?

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I'll Lock Up

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