The Lost Art of Manliness

Wolfmanjack · Nov 20, 2009

Look who recently made GQ's ten most stylish men list:

Perhaps he could use a little help from a certain 25-year-old law student.

Just my opinion.

Paisley · Nov 20, 2009

The author has a blog, http://artofmanliness.com/. Except for the parts about shaving, it seems like sensible lessons for life that anybody could apply.

HadleyH · Nov 20, 2009

Lefty said:
+1. "Hemingway or unsophisticated wimp" is the theme of the entire site.

fftopic:
For me it's easy.... Hemingway all the way

no wimps allowed.

Tomasso · Nov 20, 2009

Wolfmanjack said:
Look who recently made GQ's ten most stylish men list:

Perhaps he could use a little help from a certain 25-year-old law student.

I believe this tome deals with comportment, not style.

Hamilton_Honey · Nov 20, 2009

Tomasso said:
I'm flummoxed by this statement. Please elaborate.

Flummoxed. I love that word - it's so...perfect for what it means

What I mean is that when I come to the Fedora Lounge and interact with others here I have always been treated respectfully.

When I say that "if I want something less, all I need to do is step outside my house" I mean that in general, most of society has either forgotten the importance of courtesy or doesn't care for whatever their particular reasons are.

It's nice to know of at least one place (this forum) where the general attitude can be counted on to be courteous.

I hope that de-flummoxes.

reetpleat · Nov 20, 2009

Well, I shouldn't have been such a spoiler. I didn't mean to denigrate the book, although it is not much to my tastes. But mainly, I said what I did because I anticipated the tiresome flood of members who will be chiming in about how awful modern people are because they don't wear hats, that they take off inside and when a lady passes.

I do believe iin manliness. To me, it is be true to yourself, do what you think is right, and do what needs to be done. But that wouldn't make for much of a book. beyond that, i do not have muich to tell anyone about how they should be a man.

Otium · Nov 20, 2009

Art of Manliness

I stumbled upon that Art of Manliness website some time ago, he actually discusses interesting topics. Among other tidbits, I did learn more about correctly using a safety razor from that website at 33 than I ever did from my father (who is a fine man, just didn't teach me that).

As for a 25 year old lawyer not being the best source to teach, I would disagree there as well. Some of his best posts are great nuggets based off Benjamin Franklin and TR among others; he has found great, and once common, moral or manly lessons from the past and re-posted them. He has recommended the old Boy Scout Handbook as well.

Sadly, the website has morphed lately and taken on a life of its own becoming over-commercialized. I used to enjoy the weekly email while now the daily email with subjects like today's "how to make hospital bed corners like those in boot camp" are frankly pointless. Then again I can't fault a man for finding something that succeeds and then trying to make some money off of it.

Carlisle Blues · Nov 20, 2009

reetpleat said:
Well, I shouldn't have been such a spoiler. I didn't mean to denigrate the book

You did not spoil anything that book is such nonsense authored by people who have created a product and built in market for wimpy, insecure males who need to be told they are men.

Strength of character comes from within and anyone who has the deisre for self improvement has myriad sources to choose from, including but not limited to, biographies, how to books, relatives, and other primary sources.

My objection is not necessarily content of "how to", it is the underlying message of disenfranchising the reader of his manhood, then placing the information in the context that males have the need to regain something they somehow lost when in fact manhood is a state of being and an ever progressing journey not a destination.

Carlisle Blues · Nov 20, 2009

HadleyH said:
fftopic:
For me it's easy.... Hemingway all the way

no wimps allowed.

I like Hemingway as well, but, if I had a twenty something son I would not use Hemingway as a role model only for the fact that Hemingway's solution to life was not the most "manly" to approach a situation. It was a self sabotaging way at the gift of life and the wonderful treasures it holds....

And then there are those who when faced with too much man they turn and run away...

Obviously Hemingway was not what this poster from the "Art Of Manliness" depicts perhaps he was a little wimpy at the end...[huh]

analiebe · Nov 20, 2009

fftopic: but i hate when a small section of a quote is taken out of context of the whole... (i understand its the site that cut-down the quote, not you carlisle )

"The world breaks everyone and afterward some are strong in the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry"
ernest hemingway

Carlisle Blues · Nov 20, 2009

analiebe said:
fftopic: but i hate when a small section of a quote is taken out of context of the whole... (i understand its the site that cut-down the quote, not you carlisle )

"The world breaks everyone and afterward some are strong in the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry"
ernest hemingway

But that is the point "The Art of Manliness" issues this partial quote in an effort to influence it's followers. In addition they have someone who simply quit....Hemingway committed suicide.

Hemigway is there role model???? Please we all have challenges in life some we overcome some we succumb to. There is the strength: the commitment to see things through no matter what . To triumph over our own doubts; doubts about self or the situation, to have the equanimity and faith that what was placed in my path is worth fighting for whether is be my health, a relationship or the rights of another. And in the end if we fail to overcome to resiliency to bounce back not to quit. There are always solutions.

Son_of_Atropos · Nov 20, 2009

I just want to say that Carlise Blue raises interesting and well thought out points. Does not having this book make me less a man? Is being less a man make me more of a woman? What the heck does that even mean? Does giving this book to someone subtly say, "You, are a sissy, read this, and man up." Or sometimes is a book just a book?

As someone between the ages of 22-29, I view his website as a quest to finding the "ideal man". The premise is that men were closer to this "ideal" in the early 1900s and now present day man has strayed from this "ideal." <This raises the question, is manhood purely subjective or are there objective qualities to manhood. Followed by a problem with the comparative method, were men back then really that great or is this merely looking back at the past with "rose colored glasses."> Many of his articles/posts discuss men of the past and their habits and advice. However, the art of manliness seems misleading because, as a previous poster mentioned, much of the advice is appropriate for anybody.

So, the website is interesting because it discusses how men acted in the "good old days." I don't think everything in there is dogma, but it is interesting. I enjoy the site because I learn something new and to me learning something new is invaluable regardless of the source. Furthermore, if the site is a gateway to other informative sources then even better.

Perhaps, I will check it out at a library sometime.

Dulouz · Nov 20, 2009

I am part of the community over at AoM, so call me biased if you will.

Carlisle Blues said:
Strength of character comes from within and anyone who has the deisre for self improvement has myriad sources to choose from, including but not limited to, biographies, how to books, relatives, and other primary sources.

I myself am a mid-20 male who had an absent father and no other strong male influences growing up. I never learned a lot of the things that I now consider important skills and knowledge for a man to have.

You are right that there are plenty of places to find primary source info on self improvement. A lot of what Brett does is point guys to those sources in an entertaining and accessible way.

Carlisle Blues said:
My objection is not necessarily content of "how to", it is the underlying message of disenfranchising the reader of his manhood, then placing the information in the context that males have the need to regain something they somehow lost when in fact manhood is a state of being and an ever progressing journey not a destination.

I have not read the book yet, from reading the blog and forums I think that Brett and Kate to a great job of aiding guys like me to find their way. I don't think the site disenfranchises the readers. I think the readers find the site because they already feel disenfranchised. It gives guys like me a place to find others in similar situations (or those that have been through them) who they can talk to and figure things out.

Also, I don't think the blog takes itself as seriously as you may think. Everything is done with a bit of humor.

vintage68 · Nov 20, 2009

Thanks for the perspective Dulouz, and welcome to the Fedora Lounge!

Lefty · Nov 20, 2009

Wolfmanjack said:
Look who recently made GQ's ten most stylish men list:

Perhaps he could use a little help from a certain 25-year-old law student.

Just my opinion.

He can sing, dance, act, and carry on spontaneous conversation. He's got his own style. To cap it off, he dates models and sleeps on a pile of money. Yet, he seems like a nice guy.

-and I'm not even a fan

I'll take talent, personality and success over some romantic notion of the educated adventurer any day.

Carlisle Blues · Nov 20, 2009

Dulouz said:
I myself am a mid-20 male who had an absent father and no other strong male influences growing up. I never learned a lot of the things that I now consider important skills and knowledge for a man to have.

You are right that there are plenty of places to find primary source info on self improvement. A lot of what Brett does is point guys to those sources in an entertaining and accessible way.

I have not read the book yet, from reading the blog and forums I think that Brett and Kate to a great job of aiding guys like me to find their way. I don't think the site disenfranchises the readers.

My father died when I was in my early 20's, I had to take over the responsibility of being a central male figure for my younger siblings in addition to living my own life which included working on Wall Street full time, full time college at night and running my accounting/tax business.

I made it my business to seek out male role models that I admired, and read biographies of those that I wanted to emulate such as: Ernest Hemingway for example.

I am not eschewing "The Art of Man" all together. I am pointing out that information like the following clearly creates a negative influence on the target audience and obfuscates the realities of life.

This is from their web site.

"In the midst of solving one problem, however, we’ve created another. While the feminist movement focused on the role of women in society, little discussion was given to what men’s role in this new world would be. As a result, we’re left with men who are confused and lost about their purpose as a man.

A survey sheds some light on how men feel about their role today:

* 52% said they had to live according to women’s rules
* 58% said they would prefer to be the main breadwinner, with 34% preferring their wife to be a full-time mother/homemaker, and 24% preferring their wife to work part-time.
* only 33% felt they could speak freely what they thought
* 67% felt it safer to conceal their opinion
* more than half thought society was turning them into “waxed and coifed metrosexuals”

I will say I am happy to be a stay at home father, who cooks, cleans and faces my responsibilities. Naturally, my choice to stay home with my boy was predicated on the fact that I was fortunate to retire at a young age and am ready for expanding my life in many great ways. If I was susceptible to the influence of the aforementioned I can safely say that I would have a "WOMAN'" do the "womanly" chores and I would be dragging my knuckles on the ground and beating my chest at the appropriate times.

Miss Neecerie · Nov 20, 2009

I never thought I would see the day....

Where people here would argue that a book....teaching people things like manners and comportment of ANY sort.....

is bad and not an improvement over the -clueless- behavior you all seem to rail and rant against in every other thread here.

Wow....speechless.

Lefty · Nov 20, 2009

Miss Neecerie said:
comportment of ANY sort.....

Well, maybe there are some limits on comportment.

Miss Neecerie · Nov 20, 2009

Lefty said:
Well, maybe there are some limits on comportment.

Hey...if they are mannerly and learned it from that book.....then how is that still not an improvement over being loutish asshats?

Carlisle Blues · Nov 20, 2009

Miss Neecerie said:
Where people here would argue that a book....teaching people things like manners and comportment of ANY sort.....

is bad and not an improvement over the -clueless- behavior you all seem to rail and rant against in every other thread here.

Wow....speechless.

If you carefully read my thoughts I am not speaking to manners or "how to" I am addressing the underlying misogynistic perspective expressed therein.

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