Formal Wear Primer

Marc Chevalier · Dec 8, 2009

scotrace said:
Noel Coward? Cary Grant? Douglas Fairbanks Jr.?

They were acknowledged as good dressers ... but not as style arbiters. Menjou was in another class.

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jamespowers · Dec 8, 2009

Marc Chevalier said:
They were acknowledged as good dressers ... but not as style arbiters. Menjou was in another class.

.

Then again, aside from the people here, the average person off the street would have no idea who the heck Menjou is or was. He was the nation's best dressed man nine times but that was quite a while ago. [huh]

Marc Chevalier · Dec 8, 2009

jamespowers said:
He was the nation's best dressed man nine times but that was quite a while ago. [huh]

True. Time to reintroduce him:

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...njou&hl=en&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS355US355&sa=N&um=1

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...njou&hl=en&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS355US355&sa=N&um=1

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...njou&hl=en&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS355US355&sa=N&um=1

http://vintagestills.com/photosales2/195redhotwheels.jpg

In one movie, he even made fun of his own reputation:

.

dhermann1 · Dec 8, 2009

He was a great villain in "A Woman of Paris", back during the silent days. In the early 50's he hosted an early anthology TV series, called "My Favorite Story", in which popular short stories were dramatized. Always very suave, with very cultivated diction, as well as appearance. And one of the all time champ mustaches. Hercule Poirot's mustache could take lessons.

Tomasso · Dec 8, 2009

I love this shot of AM but mostly he looked a bit too stiff; certainly well dressed and correct but a touch too stiff. [huh]

jamespowers · Dec 8, 2009

Tomasso said:
I love this shot of AM but mostly he looked a bit too stiff; certainly well dressed and correct but a touch too stiff. [huh]

i thought that was the whole point of posing for a picture.

MisterGrey · Dec 9, 2009

So, for my own questions now.

I recently won this tailcoat on eBay.

It's flawless except for a small "run" 3/4 of the way down the left lapel, no thicker than a length of thread and about 1/5 to 2 inches in length. As you can see in the picture, it's not visible unless you're right on top of it, at a certain angle, and looking for it. So I consider this a real steal, and ready for wear. I'm getting married in '11, and am planning on wearing it. My problem, now, is determining what to do with the groomsmen. My fiancee and I would like the aesthetic to be classic but also timeless, with some minor wiggle room to express our own eccentricity (she's a Russian Literature major; I'm a psychology major and struggling writer; and the groomsmen are my brother and his folk-rock band).

The two definites are her in a Victorian-inspired "prairie" style wedding gown, and me in the tailcoat. One idea had been white dinner jackets and cummerbunds, but there's the dual concern of the drastic disparity between the ultra-formal tailcoat and the semi-formal white jacket look, and that it would appear to be a weirdo clashing of different time periods.

Has anyone got any suggestions?

Oh, and on a related note, I've kind of fallen in love with this hat to pair with the coat for photo purposes. I like that, while it's still a top hat, it's removed from the stereotype of the stodgy tycoon or a Dickensian Christmas caroler.

cptjeff · Dec 9, 2009

I'm not sure a top hat has to give off that kind of connotation. Observe Fred Astaire:

As for groomsmen, refer again to above photo.

I don't think that there would be much of a problem with dinner jackets for the groomsmen. Many weddings have the groom in a tuxedo and the groomsmen in everyday lounge suits. If the groom is dressed a step above, I would think that that's fitting.

dhermann1 · Dec 9, 2009

OK, if you want to be strictly traditional, keep in mind that that sort of tailcoat is evening wear only, that is after 6PM. For a day time wedding (and the earlier in the day, the more formal it is, counterintuitive as that may seem) you would wear a morning coat. That type of coat has tails that curve backwards from the wiast, as opposed to that sharp angle.
If you do have an evening wedding, then the groomsmen being in black tie should be OK. There have been several posts here showing both black tie and white tie worn at the same formal event. Just make sure to have the guys avoid the weird modern Hollywood style tuxes that are so popular these days. That hat would not go with the tail coat. You need a shiney silk hat for that sort of coat.
BTW, that's a great example of a shawl collar tail coat, which was discussed just a few posts ago in this thread. Quite nice!
The bottom line, of course, is to do what ever makes you and your bride happy. It's your day, (or rather her

) day after all.
And best of luck!

Richard Warren · Dec 9, 2009

I would not wear that hat. Do you thank a hat is necessary? Or do you just want one?

Brummagem Joe · Dec 9, 2009

Marc Chevalier said:
They were acknowledged as good dressers ... but not as style arbiters. Menjou was in another class.

.

........I suppose it depends on what you mean by a "style arbiter"......was Kennedy a style arbiter when he did in the hat industry or Clark Gable when he performed a similar function for the undershirt industry......as a fashion influence Grant was surely much more important than Menjou who although in many ways a classic dresser sometimes crossed the line into caricature.....the DoW, Astaire, Grant, Cooper, Gable, Kennedy, Coleman, never crossed that line.

dnjan · Dec 9, 2009

Richard Warren said:
I would not wear that hat. Do you thank a hat is necessary? Or do you just want one?

I tend to agree with this sentiment.

And remember, the pictures are about her, and also about the two of you together. That hat would say "look at me".

Tomasso · Dec 9, 2009

Brummagem Joe said:
was Kennedy a style arbiter when he did in the hat industry

[bad] Don't be spreading misinformation.

Read:

Feraud · Dec 9, 2009

^^ Right. We'll have no more of that Kennedy business around here.

MisterGrey · Dec 9, 2009

dhermann1 said:
OK, if you want to be strictly traditional, keep in mind that that sort of tailcoat is evening wear only, that is after 6PM. For a day time wedding (and the earlier in the day, the more formal it is, counterintuitive as that may seem) you would wear a morning coat. That type of coat has tails that curve backwards from the wiast, as opposed to that sharp angle.
If you do have an evening wedding, then the groomsmen being in black tie should be OK. There have been several posts here showing both black tie and white tie worn at the same formal event. Just make sure to have the guys avoid the weird modern Hollywood style tuxes that are so popular these days. That hat would not go with the tail coat. You need a shiney silk hat for that sort of coat.
BTW, that's a great example of a shawl collar tail coat, which was discussed just a few posts ago in this thread. Quite nice!
The bottom line, of course, is to do what ever makes you and your bride happy. It's your day, (or rather her ) day after all.
And best of luck!

Well, the wedding will be in the late afternoon, but, by the time it's finished and time for the reception, it will be evening; so I'll be exploiting the "on one's way to an evening function" exception.

As for the groomsmen's tuxes, the tenative idea was white shawl lapel dinner jackets and pleated turndown collars with black bow ties and muted blue cummerbunds (of a hue similar to those featured in the "alternative cummerbund" photo at Black Tie Guide). So the only divergence planned for the groomsmen would be the cummerbunds. My concern is that the more "old fashioned" tailcoat and Victorian style gown would contrast/clash too much with the more "modern" white dinner jackets.

I also suppose I'll be jettisoning the hat. I suppose I would only be wearing it for photos, and perhaps in between events while outdoors, but in the Texas Summer climate it'd be more a hindrance than anything else. So I guess I'll be going "topless" (forgive me, loungers!) It does do me a service, though, in saving the money I'd normally have spent on the hat.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone; keep it coming!

Marc Chevalier · Dec 9, 2009

Brummagem Joe said:
Menjou ... although in many ways a classic dresser, sometimes crossed the line into caricature.....

Show us an example of Menjou crossing the line into caricature. I'll wager that you won't be able to find one. (The funny movie photo I posted above doesn't count.)

Brummagem Joe said:
The DoW ... never crossed that line.

Really?

And in the late '20s, Fred Astaire attached a collar pin to his buttondown shirt's collar. Now that is certainly crossing a line.

.

avedwards · Dec 9, 2009

MisterGrey said:
As for the groomsmen's tuxes, the tenative idea was white shawl lapel dinner jackets and pleated turndown collars with black bow ties and muted blue cummerbunds (of a hue similar to those featured in the "alternative cummerbund" photo at Black Tie Guide). So the only divergence planned for the groomsmen would be the cummerbunds. My concern is that the more "old fashioned" tailcoat and Victorian style gown would contrast/clash too much with the more "modern" white dinner jackets.

My personal opinion (that of someone who wears a notched lapel DJ) is that you in a tailcoat and groomsmen in white dinner jackets may clash. The tailcoat is the most formal sort of evening wear, and the white dinner jacket is the least formal form of black tie. I don't see anything wrong with you in a tailcoat and others in dinner jackets, just the type of dinner jacket which may be a problem. I'd personally have the groomsmen in black dinner jackets (possibly shawl lapel to match your coat) with black cummerbunds or waistcoats. That way they will not look out of place next to you, but distinctly different at the same time.

MisterGrey · Dec 10, 2009

avedwards said:
My personal opinion (that of someone who wears a notched lapel DJ) is that you in a tailcoat and groomsmen in white dinner jackets may clash. The tailcoat is the most formal sort of evening wear, and the white dinner jacket is the least formal form of black tie. I don't see anything wrong with you in a tailcoat and others in dinner jackets, just the type of dinner jacket which may be a problem. I'd personally have the groomsmen in black dinner jackets (possibly shawl lapel to match your coat) with black cummerbunds or waistcoats. That way they will not look out of place next to you, but distinctly different at the same time.

I'd really wanted to inject some (subtle) color into the outfit, which is why the white dinner jacket appealed-- it seems to lend itself to both the cummerbund and a break with the monochromatic scheme of white tie and the standard tuxedo. I'm just not sure how I'd feel about a blue cummerbund with a black jacket-- although I do prefer the idea of the aesthetic of the black jackets paired with my tails.

Geesie · Dec 10, 2009

Marc Chevalier said:
And in the late '20s, Fred Astaire attached a collar pin to his buttondown shirt's collar. Now that is certainly crossing a line.
[/COLOR]

Fred Astaire could do certain things because he was Fred Astaire. Whenever someone mentions that "Fred Astaire did it so it can't be that wrong", the question should be "are you Fred Astaire?"
If the answer is no, the style should be reconsidered.

AlanC · Dec 10, 2009

Revisiting this, would a white pique waistcoat work with a shawl lapel dj or only a peak lapel?

Midnight Blue said:
As for the white waistcoat, metropd is right that while it is not standard for black tie it is certainly acceptable.

http://www.blacktieguide.com/Classic_Components/Alternatives/IMG_3324_D.JPG

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