Energy self sufficiency - 1930's style

dhermann1 · Mar 24, 2010

I found this letter to the editor in the online version of my local home town paper. It mostly deals with energy issues, specifically wind power, facing western New York today, but he has a fascinating section where he describes what his family farm did for electric power in the 1930's.
Westfield and Ripley are on the southern shore of Lake Erie, in the westernmost part of New York State. The shore line gets a steady breeze from Canada that may someday soon be used for wind power. The view he describes, of the Lake Erie shoreline, is indeed spectacular.
http://mayvillesentinelnews.com/page/content.detail/id/509595/Tilting-at-windmills.html?nav=5041

Foofoogal · Mar 25, 2010

fftopic: sort of related.

I heard on TV some oil company is trying to make fuel out of "pollen"
Would be great satisfaction to all those that suffer from allergies in different seasons.

This could get very political very fast. Sorry.

Dated Guy · Apr 3, 2010

I can get nearly 3 yards to the sneeze on pollen.....

carebear · Apr 4, 2010

Dated Guy said:
I can get nearly 3 yards to the sneeze on pollen.....

Now we just need to get you in front of a windmill.

Diamondback · Apr 5, 2010

Or, we could sink geothermal turbines around the edges of Yellowstone and have at least 20-30 years' worth of full energy-independence off those alone, at least for feeding the Grid...

The problem with alternative energy is that everytime somebody comes up with a practical, efficient plan, somebody else says "NoNONO!" and ties it up in a long, drawn-out lawsuit because it'd "encroach on the habitat of some rare species of roach" or something. Up here in Pac NW, we have two complete powerplants, Ross Dam and Diablo, that were just about ready to flip the switches on until somebody pitched a fit about some fish in the rivers...

handlebar bart · Apr 5, 2010

Diamondback said:
Or, we could sink geothermal turbines around the edges of Yellowstone and have at least 20-30 years' worth of full energy-independence off those alone, at least for feeding the Grid...

The problem with alternative energy is that everytime somebody comes up with a practical, efficient plan, somebody else says "NoNONO!" and ties it up in a long, drawn-out lawsuit because it'd "encroach on the habitat of some rare species of roach" or something. Up here in Pac NW, we have two complete powerplants, Ross Dam and Diablo, that were just about ready to flip the switches on until somebody pitched a fit about some fish in the rivers...

Ross, Diablo, and the Gorge are operating[huh]

Diamondback · Apr 5, 2010

Must be a more recent--like within the past 5-10 years, IIRC--reversal of policy, then--I know they were stuck idle for a long time because of EarthFirst!er lawsuits.

And then there's the "dambuster"* crowd...

*NOT to be confused with No. 617 Squadron, RAF!
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Viola · Apr 5, 2010

I really think the key to energy self-sufficiency is deciding what you can do you yourself, and what you can do without. Solar panels are nice and all but if its to light a house twice as big as you need and its appliances that do more than you need done?

Why do stoves need to be industrial now? People probably do less total cooking on them than the little stridently residential pastel ranges of the '30s.

Think of the thousand sq. ft. post-war housing, that could have little closets because you only had six outfits.

Now people act like you need 2200 sq. ft. and a minivan because you had 1 baby. (Or my favourite, needs 3+ bedrooms for 2 people and a dog. Like the dog is going to take itself off to the study and do your taxes) Unless the baby is Bunyan-esque, I really can't see it.

Diamondback · Apr 5, 2010

There's also the fact that some of us need huge amounts of storage-space (large libraries, ordnance-lockers, significant ammo-storage, just to name a few examples), and renting a unit at Public Storage is too weak on security, not a stable enough environment or lacks guaranteed anytime access in case of unexpected requirement of the contents.

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Viola · Apr 5, 2010

Now I don't know how you do things but what kind of energy draw is YOUR ammo-storage because I always pictured a set-up for myself not unlike a pantry. Shelves, drawers, canisters. Nothing automated or running up my meter.

Diamondback · Apr 5, 2010

Energy, negligible aside from the dehumidifiers and the inventory-control system--it was the square-footage I was referring to. Which partially explains why I've designed a 6500-square-foot residence for just myself and possibly the two AI-controlled Firebirds, although there is space built in for guests and/or a family if I ever find a gal willing to let me settle down and raise one with her...

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ChadHahn · Apr 10, 2010

In Nebraska, where I'm from, back in the 20's and 30's most farms had wind generators. Most were torn down years ago after rural electrification although sometimes the little building that held the batteries is still there.

Chad

Mav · May 3, 2010

Viola said:
I really think the key to energy self-sufficiency is deciding what you can do you yourself, and what you can do without. Solar panels are nice and all but if its to light a house twice as big as you need and its appliances that do more than you need done?

Why do stoves need to be industrial now? People probably do less total cooking on them than the little stridently residential pastel ranges of the '30s.

Think of the thousand sq. ft. post-war housing, that could have little closets because you only had six outfits.

Now people act like you need 2200 sq. ft. and a minivan because you had 1 baby. (Or my favourite, needs 3+ bedrooms for 2 people and a dog. Like the dog is going to take itself off to the study and do your taxes) Unless the baby is Bunyan-esque, I really can't see it.

Well said.
Over the last 15 years or so, I've dabbled in both the residential wind and solar markets (selling some PV solar now, in fact). There's a real tricky balance to this. There are really two realistic applications for self- generated supplemental power: hardcore greenies who feel better about themselves by investing the bucks for a system, or those who purposely limit their home size and electrical usage for whatever personal reasons. I fall into the latter group because I'm cheap, and like a certain amount of self- sufficiency. There are a lot of folks in that group.
Off- the- grid is another story, and almost requires that a house be originally designed for it.

Anyway. When I'm King of the U.S., we'll do it this way:
1. Nuke plants,
2. Home- owned solar and wind for supplemental and feeding back into the grid,
3. More nuke plants.

And, despite all that, I haven't outfitted my place with either solar or wind yet. Even considering the size of my place (900 sq. ft. cottage), and minimal electrical usage, the payback isn't quick enough, even if I install myself. The efficiencies just aren't there. Yet. Solar has come a long way, but you're still stuck with incredible inefficiencies (mostly through friction loss) on wind.

Gingerella72 · May 3, 2010

ChadHahn said:
In Nebraska, where I'm from, back in the 20's and 30's most farms had wind generators. Most were torn down years ago after rural electrification although sometimes the little building that held the batteries is still there.

Chad

fftopic: My dad tells a story of one of his first paying jobs off the farm, in the late 40's/early 50's, working as part of the crews intalling poles for the electrical wires in rural central Nebraska as rural farms were brought "onto the grid".....one farm's driveway they approached, they were met by the farmer with his shotgun ordering them off his land. "No way in he** are you going to be running those electric wires up here, I don't want it, don't need it, and that's that!"

His attitude was pretty common, from what my dad tells me. Rural Nebraska was dragged into the 20th century kicking and screaming. And now we're being dragged into the 21st century kicking and screaming, lol!

Viola, I agree with you, I get sick when I watch all these home shows on HGTV and the like and all the people having a fit over whether or not their kitchen has granite countertops and all stainless steel appliances, PLUS the industrial 6 burner stove....you know it's all for show, a status symbol. Hopefully these kinds of attitudes are going to be turning around as more people understand what the consumer culture is doing to us and our environment. Give me one of those little pastel kerosene stoves from the 30's any day!

Viola · May 9, 2010

Gingerella72 said:
Viola, I agree with you, I get sick when I watch all these home shows on HGTV and the like and all the people having a fit over whether or not their kitchen has granite countertops and all stainless steel appliances, PLUS the industrial 6 burner stove....you know it's all for show, a status symbol. Hopefully these kinds of attitudes are going to be turning around as more people understand what the consumer culture is doing to us and our environment. Give me one of those little pastel kerosene stoves from the 30's any day!

The thing that slays me about the stoves is you know that little jadeite green Magic Chef was expected to be used at least for a breakfast and a dinner, for four or five people, every day. Way more total cooking than these "commerical" grade ranges.

For myself I am attacking energy use from the use end first. I cannot possibly afford enough solar panels to go the other way on reducing dependency or (my dream) one day being totally off-grid.

Diamondback · May 9, 2010

Y'know, this is where partial- and full-subterrranean construction techniques come into their own... the ground makes great insulation. Design just enough surface-level area to host a sufficient PV array to meet your power needs, then Dig In for the square-footage past that...

Views would suck, though.

Other thing is pick up pieces to install your core power-management system as you can afford 'em, then add one PV at a time... Check this out for some cheap homebuilt PV ideas: http://www.mdpub.com/SolarPanel/

Creeping Past · May 9, 2010

Personal energy self-sufficiency is stymied a little in many parts of Europe, including the UK, since electricity created through solar power, for example, is presumed to belong to the power grid and individuals have to make it available to the network and buy it back at a discount.

I'm not sure how this works in relation to other forms of energy/power. But deciding on state pre-ownership of energy seems like a bar on initiative to me, at the very least.

Diamondback · May 9, 2010

But that's indicative of the bigger cultural differences across the Pond: over in Europe, it's all really still property of the State or the Crown-in-Parliament or whatever trappings and institutions the Ruling Class have wrapped themselves in for a given place and time, and what you're allowed to have is whatever they deign to allow you. The whole Top-Down "We Know What's Best For You" thinking... there is a very definite community within the Power Class both here and there that would like to turn the clock back to the days of Lords and Serfs.

As I've said before, not politics but rather "Day 1" Basic Psych with regard to Power and the "Have/Have-Not" divide.

Respectfully submitted.

Energy self sufficiency - 1930's style

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