Learning to Dance

Paisley said:

Marq, welcome to the Fedora Lounge and thanks for your interest in dance.

We do try to stay on topic here. There's another thread here that is for discussing dance styles, history, etc. (The thread is made up of off-topic posts I asked the bartenders to pull from this thread. Neophyte dancers just found the discussion of history and styles confusing.)

As to your comment about having difficulty learning balboa, I've heard a few leads say they found it hard to learn. As a follow, I find that most guys who don't lead it very well don't have the proper frame. They're too far apart from their partner. You need to be rather firmly connected on the right side of your chest, hand firmly on your follow's back, right over her bra hooks. Then the lead has to lead with his whole body, not just move his feet around. I hope this helps.

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The problem i have with Balboa is not leading it correctly.I'm told my frame and style are bang on .I lead my cross overs in and out instead of collapsing i'm relaxed on the fast stuff i also have a good few variations of cross overs i can do and even manage a Maxi slide with ease.No my momentary problem seems to be Twizzles and leading in to the left on a throw out variation going straight into cross overs.The Twizzles well i need two brains for that as there is so much to remember and leading into the left instead of right on a throw out is just plain wrong lol.I will get there ,but i only lead a move on the dance floor after i have perfected it and am sure i can lead it properly and with the right style................Paul

More on Music

Just picked up some great CDs last weekend at a used CD store. Instead of giving you titles, I'll make some more general suggestions to find some good practice music.

Pay attention to the date the songs were recorded. Most of the swinging music was recorded in the 30s and 40s, and even into the 50s. Bobby Darin, Frank Sinatra and others recorded some good music in the early 60s, but it doesn't have a big band sound (if that's what you're after). I'm thinking of "Beyond the Sea," "More," "Midnight in Moscow," "Runaround Sue," and others. True, some others have covered the same songs, but for my money, Linda Rhonstadt and Brian Setzer don't hold a candle to Peggy Lee or Bobby Darin.

Besides big bands, early R&B is inspiring to dance to. Much of this was recorded in the 40s and 50s. If you like vocal harmony, a lot of these songs should be up your alley. You can hear the roots of doo-wop in them.

Enjoy!

this is a great thread - thanks

Lead Smoothly Like the Champs

Lately I've noticed quite a few East Coast dancers who are rough with their partners: guys pushing out their partners out like a lawnmower, throwing them around, and yanking them back. Not good, not authentic, not pleasant to look at--and not likely to get them better partners. Perhaps this is how they were taught. If so, this is what my teacher, Dan Newsome, a national lindy hop champ, told his class:

Treat her like a delicate flower.

I've danced with Dan and other champs and they're smooth as whip cream. Leading is communication, and when you have a "quiet" basic, it's easy to communicate even those moves that are subtle, complicated, or new to your partner.

Leading shouldn't be like moving a giant lead weight around. (And ladies, you need to move yourselves--don't make your partner do it.) On the rock step in East Coast, use one another's weight to pull on each other while keeping your elbows bent. There's no pushing needed in the basic step. Keep your hands still and lead with your body. Give it a try: see how it feels, see how it looks in the mirror or onscreen.

Some follows are really "heavy" follows, too; it isn't just a problem with the leads. I've danced with girls that... I'm not sure what it is that they are doing, but it's like there is too much tension in their arms, and they throw their entire weight into the moves. I think it's over-correcting for being told they need to have a better frame. It's a real workout to dance with someone like that; the right place is somewhere in the middle between that and "spaghetti arms". If either person is using a lot of force, he or she is doing something wrong. It's all momentum and leverage and the music.

The WORST thing you can do is let your elbows go straight. It hurts you, it hurts your partner, and it doesn't look smooth, because it isn't. Keep your elbows slightly bent, even if your arms are extended. This lets your muscles work as shock absorbers, and keeps your arms from getting yanked out of their sockets.

Also, don't try to anticipate what your lead is going to do based on stuff like "this guy always follows move X with move Y". Just follow. If you guess wrong, and try to follow a move that he isn't leading, it won't work.

Some people are really, REALLY serious about dancing. They'll drill one move over and over again to get it "perfect". In my opinion, if it isn't fun, you're doing it wrong. If everyone is having fun, who cares if you put your foot half an inch too far to the left or something like that? It's about the music, and the feel of the dance, not about perfectly executed moves and following steps exactly. Focus on the stuff that's used in every dance; frame, strong but gentle lead, feeling what your partner is doing (this goes both ways; the lead needs to be able to feel when the follow doesn't have her weight on the right foot for a particular move, that she doesn't recognize some leads the same way he is expecting her to, and so forth) and so forth. Don't sweat the small stuff. If she misses a lead, don't stop dancing, just work with it.

Keep moving. Some leads (myself included) like to lead "free spins", where we will actually let go of the follow completely, and catch her hand after she completes a turn. Some follows feel the dropped hand, and just... stop. Let the momentum lead you, and keep your hand where he can catch it.

All good points. Just a couple of comments:

Use equal and opposite pressure. In other words, if your lead uses a lot of his weight when you pull away from each other, use your weight to match it. If he uses just a little, use a little of yours to match it. This is for the rock step in EC and more or less the whole basic in lindy.

Keep your elbows bent and your shoulder blades pulled together a little. Ladies especially seem to have a hunched over posture. Not pretty, and not good for following.

Strike a balance between improvement and enjoyment.

And as instructor Truman said in a different class, if you make a mistake, act like it's all part of your master plan.

Adamjaskie, somewhere in the Golden Era is a thread of mine about breaking out of beginner mode. You and some other Loungers might enjoy that one, too.

Yeah, I think the problem I have is with follows that, rather than matching how much pressure I am giving them, give whatever pressure they are used to giving, so I match what they are giving me back once I realize they aren't adjusting to my lead.

I can work with it, no problem. It's still fun, it's still smooth, I just get tired faster.

I want to bump this thread. I'm currently learning how to east coast swing, and wondering if anyone is doing the same. A few ladies in the powder room had been saying they were taking classes also, so I'm wondering what everyone's beginner experiences have been.

A Perfect Storm

I had a ton of fun in my beginner classes. Partly because I was lucky enough to have a good partner, and partly because the teachers taught leading and following. Part of it was the club where I went to learn and dance--I still remember instantly liking the place the first time I walked in. Christmas lights, fake vines, bold murals, a wavy wooden floor, a leaky wooden roof, and an unscrubbed look made it charming. There was no air conditioning, just swamp coolers, and my first summer there saw a lot of 100-degree days.

Part of it was the scene. There was an exclusive contingent, but the other 95% of the crowd was there to have fun--and they danced with skill and passion. The DJ and bands played nothing but swing and old R&B. A big part of it was that after trying tango and latin, I found my calling in swing: I liked heat more than drama and brass more than violins. And it came at a time when I badly needed some wind in my sails.

I certainly think it makes a world of difference to have a consistent partner to dance with as a beginner. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find one yet, so I'm forging on single for now. I hope it isn't handicapping me too badly!lol

As long as you dance with some good partners, it shouldn't make a difference. What I've seen with people who rarely change partners is that they hit a plateau at a low-intermediate level. I don't know about women, but men I've danced with who stick with one partner don't lead very well.

I hope you don't mind this little link:
http://carolelombard.org/lets-dance-like-lombard
What can I say, "Dancing with the Stars" 1935 edition?

Dancing is like anything else in life. You get out of it what you put into it. That is, of course, after you "get over yourself". The easier it is to ditch your self-consciousness, the easier it will be to learn. I was hard-core for Lindy and Balboa for several years, and while I'm rusty I can have a good time with it. Lessons from a professional dance teacher is huge.

And what I mean about a professional is someone who is not just someone who is a competent dancer and hangs out a shingle and calls themself "an instructor". A true professional dance teacher can teach you more than one style, and will impart the fundementals that are common to all social dances i.e. connection, frame and musicality.

For lindy and Balboa, my personal recommendations are Rusty Frank, Sylvia Sykes and Peter Loggins.

If you want to learn Tango (my next dance), plan on an extended trip to Buenos Aires. For a month, taking lots of private lessons and hit the Milongas 'til four in the a.m. Just like the natives.

For me, this has worked.

A long-established line dancing club began offering ballroom classes. Monday nights, professional instructor. No sign up, just show up with your $5. Each month a different class. Cha-Cha, Swing, Rhumba, Waltz, Hustle, Tango, etc. There are twice as many men as women. Everyone rotates. The instructor dances with all the students, and has very competent assistants who do so as well. It's informal, low stress, and fun. After class, the lights are lowered, the music starts, and everyone is free to dance until closing, practicing with as many partners as they can. Monday nights at the place are packed.

I'm in my third month.

Chas said:

Lessons from a professional dance teacher is huge.

And what I mean about a professional is someone who is not just someone who is a competent dancer and hangs out a shingle and calls themself "an instructor". A true professional dance teacher can teach you more than one style, and will impart the fundementals that are common to all social dances i.e. connection, frame and musicality.

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I couldn't agree more. Almost all the amateurs who teach on the floor (that is, they grab partners and try to show them how to dance) are among the WORST dancers. I've never seen them do the Charleston right. Sometimes they end up giving advice to someone they discover later is a professional dancer advanced amateur, or teacher--and around here, many of the teachers are national champs. Yet this doesn't seem to break them of the habit.

Again, one good way to find a teacher is to find someone whose dancing you like and ask who they learned from.

I have found that the dancing taught in ballroom studios tends to be a bit... dry. Even at the high levels, it lacks the life one sees on an active dance floor. Then again, I am a bit spoiled. We have a great ballroom near here (Glen Echo, for those of you in the area) and when we get a good band, we get great dancers. It is lots of fun.

As to the discussion of leading, I know entirely too many girls who are very good dancers, but because they have been doing exclusively choreographed dances in competitions, they don't follow. I have a couple moves up my sleeve that I save for just such occasions, which are slightly unpredictable, but have a strong lead to follow. That usually helps things work out. [grins]. If given the choice between two partners who I have not danced with before, so I don't know how good they are, one who has been dancing at a ballroom studio for a while, and another who has different dance training (preferably ballet, but tap is okay too) and has just learned the basic step of swing, I will choose the ballerina every time. They tend to follow a lot better, and the basic musicality and dance skills are stronger.

oh, and for what it is worth, I dance east coast, and am not really that good, just have a lot of fun.

Yup, Yeps. I'm with ya, right down the line.

Yeps said:

I have found that the dancing taught in ballroom studios tends to be a bit... dry. Even at the high levels, it lacks the life one sees on an active dance floor. Then again, I am a bit spoiled. We have a great ballroom near here (Glen Echo, for those of you in the area) and when we get a good band, we get great dancers. It is lots of fun.

As to the discussion of leading, I know entirely too many girls who are very good dancers, but because they have been doing exclusively choreographed dances in competitions, they don't follow. I have a couple moves up my sleeve that I save for just such occasions, which are slightly unpredictable, but have a strong lead to follow. That usually helps things work out. [grins]. If given the choice between two partners who I have not danced with before, so I don't know how good they are, one who has been dancing at a ballroom studio for a while, and another who has different dance training (preferably ballet, but tap is okay too) and has just learned the basic step of swing, I will choose the ballerina every time. They tend to follow a lot better, and the basic musicality and dance skills are stronger.

oh, and for what it is worth, I dance east coast, and am not really that good, just have a lot of fun.

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Interesting. In my experience, most women with ballet or jazz danced backgrounds just do not get it. They tend to think they don't need to learn much, and end up doing their own thing instead of actually following you. they also tend to be very loose and fluid and unable to hold a frame.

That said, i have known a few who have gotten into dance and become quite good. obviously, their background helps in that case.

I find there is no predictability. Friday night i was at a bar and met a group of people and we got to talking about dance. I ended up showing one women a little, as I demod to her fiance how to lead a turn. then I ended up dancing with their friend who repeatedly insisted she had never danced before. Within one minute she had the basic, the turns and several more complicated moves down. I didn't even really instruct her. She just got the push pull part of following down and I could lead her anywhere. My point is, occasionally, I will meet a woman who just gets it, ad often they are completely inexperienced, but within minutes they are better dancers than many women who have danced for years. these are the ones I keep an eye out for.

Paisley said:

I couldn't agree more. Almost all the amateurs who teach on the floor (that is, they grab partners and try to show them how to dance) are among the WORST dancers. I've never seen them do the Charleston right. Sometimes they end up giving advice to someone they discover later is a professional dancer advanced amateur, or teacher--and around here, many of the teachers are national champs. Yet this doesn't seem to break them of the habit.

Again, one good way to find a teacher is to find someone whose dancing you like and ask who they learned from.

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That said, how I wish women would ask me for a little advice. I went out Sunday and a full 80 percent of the women I danced with, most of whom have taken lessons and danced for months or years, still do not know how to do a swing out properly. I don't mean not perfect. I mean, limp arms, and worse yet, don't come back into the leader when they come out of the fifth count of a swing out. rather, they go off at an angle instead of coming into me, knowing I will not be there when they do. hope that explains what I mean well enough, or they take too much time and do not finish in eight counts. Without these things, it is impossible to get the dance at all. I don't mind beginners, because you have to start somewhere. But, since I agree, it is rude to offer unsolicited advice, I do not.

If these women would ask me for five minutes of help, I could take them to a whole new level of skill, which would get them dancing with better dancers and really snowball. yet, since they don't ask, and I don't volunteer, they go on the same old way.

I blame the group lesson system where the teachers never actually dance with the students or show them the connection they should have.

So, my advice to beginner intermediate dancers is to identify the good leaders and ask them for advice. I am sure they will be glad to help.

I've found that lessons in solo dances like ballet, belly dance and jazz are great complements to my social swing dancing; it helps me get from A to B with style. Knowing basic leading and following can only help as well. But these other dances aren't substitutes for learning swing. Lindy in particular isn't something you can fake or pick up by watching.

As for giving advice, if it's one of my regular dance partners, and I don't think he'll mind my telling him something that will really improve his dancing, I'll say something. Asking for tips from a good partner is good too--it's best to do so at the beginning of the dance so they can think about it. However, while they may know you need improvement, they might not be able to identify what you need to do differently. Best to ask your teacher or a partner who is advanced. (The important word here is "tips," as opposed to trying to cadge free lessons.)

And I know I've mentioned it before, but one of the best ways to improve is to record yourself dancing. It'll save you months of classes.